Breast Cancer: A Psychotherapist's Story

In this re-release of a powerful episode, Erin is interviewed by Tanya about her journey with breast cancer. 

Erin shares how the diagnosis and treatment affected her emotionally, how it shaped her perspective as a psychotherapist, and some of the personal experiences she encountered along the way.

This episode shares personal experiences and is not a substitute for professional or mental health advice.

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Transcript

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This is Erin Gray with Wicked Psychotherapist. Today is the first day of October and I thought it would be a great day to do a re-release of the episode we did talking about breast cancer. As some of our viewers might know, I had breast cancer diagnosed in 18, and I have the BRCA gene, so I talk about that a little bit in the episode. And yeah, I hope you enjoy it. And let us know if you have any questions, and next week I think we're gonna be going back to some Halloween stuff. We have of course some Adam Sandler things, and we hope you enjoy a few episodes. We plan for the month of October and enjoy this episode. You are listening to Wicked Psychotherapists, a podcast where two psychotherapists show you that taking care of and learning about mental health doesn't have to be wicked hat. Hi everyone, this is Tanya. Hi, this is Erin and welcome to Wicked Psychotherapists. So today we normally, we love to talk about spooky stuff, especially with October fast approaching. But today we are going to talk about something really important, really interesting. If you are a. Consistent viewer. You may have heard that Erin, she's told her story about being a breast cancer survivor and with October being breast cancer awareness month, we thought that we would talk a little bit about her journey, her experience in this as a breast cancer survivor and as a therapist. And just ask some questions, give some some feedback towards that.'cause it is a very important topic that we think. If we could get out there. So should we jump in? Should I start to, let's, let's ask some questions that we thought maybe might be important. That sounds good. All right, great. First off, I think it's really important that, and really great that you're being open and honest about this. This is a very tough subject, but I know that it's also really important to get your story out there, so really appreciate this and I'm sure a lot of people listening will appreciate this as well. The first thing that that I was wondering was how did you find out that you had breast cancer? Can you tell us a little bit about that process? That journey, and any kind of thoughts, feelings. Reactions at that time and just tell us about that a little bit. So first of all, thanks for doing this. I know we're co-host, but thanks for taking the lead today on this. Um, yeah, sure. So, of course. Yeah. So my discovery is probably a little different than a lot of people. It wasn't from self-exam or, or the annual mammogram or anything like that. I found out probably about a year before I was diagnosed that I had a gene mutation that's found usually on the paternal side. So the, there's BRCA one, which is maternal BRCA two, which is paternal, and I had just gone to a new gynecologist. And you do the history, fill out the form. They ask you family history of different cancers or heart disease. Yeah. Or whatever they ask, so, mm-hmm. This one had, it wasn't just the, tell me about your parents and this, it was, tell me about your uncles and grandparents. So I filled it out and she came back and she said, you have a lot of very unique cancers on your list. And I was like, what is she talking about? I had family members that had different types of cancer. My dad's father had pancreatic cancer. My uncle had melanoma, so there's just different types. And she then had me meet with a geneticist, and then I had to do genetic testing. It's weird. It's almost like a job interview, so I was in a boardroom. Sounds like it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I, so it was just me and this random stranger that I, that I never met, just. Really in depth interviewing me before they do the testing. And that's because the test, if it's not approved is$4,000 or something, like really expensive. Oh, the genetic testing to Right. To see if you have the brca, the geneticist called me back or genetic counselor, whatever. They're called me back about six, six weeks later I think, and told me I was positive for that. B rca, A two gene, and explain. Oh, it means that you have this higher percentage of getting breast cancer or ovarian or pancreatic or melanoma. So there's different types of cancer that the general population might have. Very low. But if you have the gene mutation, it's higher. And then I was scheduled to start seeing a breast doctor and my gynecologist, every three months, I would see one of'em. So I'd see the breast doctor one month, the gynecologist, another, so every three months. And that was part of the monitoring. So I was told it's a lot, and that was because I said I didn't wanna have the surgery. So right when I got diagnosed with the gene mutation, you have the choice. You can, you could choose to have your ovaries removed or you could choose to have a hysterectomy, or you could choose to have a. Mastectomy as a preventative metric. And I felt because looking at the data that for the BRCA two, it looked like usually people don't get breast cancer with that until they're much older than I was like in sixties. It appeared like it. They would be older. Than I was. Yeah. So I said, oh yeah. So you had to do a lot of research around that too. Yeah. Yeah. And I felt like I had gears, um, you know, to figure it out and to do the testing, you know, and my breast doctor, she's great, but said, there's gonna come a time, a lot of people. Usually after a couple years, start getting, feeling the stress of testing is too much and they just opt to have the surgeries. And I'm like, yeah, that's not gonna be me. So I ended up doing the, the mammogram and then a few months later I had to do the MRI. And then when I had the MRI, they ended up pulling me aside. The radiologist pulled me aside into a room to view, and I was thinking like, that's weird. They don't usually read everything to you while you're there. Then she started talking to me. She started. Telling me, she's like, I'm not saying it cancer, but I really want you to come back for a biopsy. So I was thinking, all right, I probably have it. That was how I pretty much found out, and it was because I was being monitored and, and it wasn't shown up on the mammogram just a few months before. I only had the mammogram maybe three or four months before I had the MRI. Oh wow. And yeah, so it, sorry. No, I, no, it sounds like there was your, the attentiveness of your doctor and then also your own research on this really helped to say, okay, hey, wait, there's something here. We gotta keep an eye on that. And that really was really a good thing, which I think is really necessitated and with our medical care. Yeah. But I'm, I'm so glad that you both were, had your eyes on it. Yeah, and, and that's one thing I always, my clients are probably always, ah, she's saying it again, but I always tell them like, you have to be your own medical advocate. Because so often no one is gonna do it for us. We have to, you know, whether you're like, ah, I don't really like that. My doctor's dictating his notes in my room with me. I've had one of those, or I've had like, just, you have to feel that you can have a team, whatever your team is, whether your team is just, you're healthy and it's your, your dentist and your regular doctor, but you wanna have people that you feel comfortable with. And I feel that with my gynecologist, my primary, at the time, he was great, but my breast doctor, I felt like together with them, I felt really safe and then I felt like I would be in the right hands when they helped me navigate the next stage, which was surgery and finding a cancer doctor, an oncologist. So it was, and just to clarify, just because I am just, I just need clarification, right?'cause I'm me. But so was it, and I really pardon my ignorance on this, but was it like an official diagnosis or was it like a more than likely kind of thing? Is that typically the way it. It goes. It was not an official diagnosis until I came back to the place where I had the MRI and they did a needle biopsy. They did an ultrasound, sound guided biopsy, and then they biopsy the spot that they thought was suspicious or whatever they saw. Then they sent it to the breast doctor that I had already had a relationship with for about a year, and then she read it and was able to call me into her office, and she met my husband and myself, and she did. I always laughed. I've, I've known her for so long now, but I always laugh and tell her she has the worst poker face because she's, she, I love her, but she's really, it be good or bad. It can be good or bad because when I went into the, when I went into her office that day for the appointment. For her to give me the results. She had tears in her eyes and she looked really sad and she then she waited to tell me,'cause she had tears in her eyes when she saw me go into the room. And then when I. When it, when she told me, she gave me a hug and everything. I said, I knew I had it as soon as I walked in your office because you're, you had tears in your eyes, but she's just really empathetic and really compassionate and I feel like I had just then too, I told my husband, I'm like, I couldn't be in better hands than with her. I'm so glad you had that. That and the way you described your team, you felt very safe with them. Mm-hmm. That's really key, and I'm glad that you had that. I know that unfortunately, not everybody has that, but I think what you're saying, no matter what, this experience is not easy, and having that on hand, definitely. I think at least makes it more navigable. Right. You know, and feel like you're supported. Which, which kind of leads me to my next question, which I'm wondering in terms of when you found this out and the reactions that you felt, did you feel like you had good support? It sounds like your medical team was amazing, but what other types of support did you have and do you feel like is needed? Yeah. At this time when I, you know, when I found out I was diagnosed and throughout everything, my husband and kids were just beyond helpful. The kids were really young at that time. They helped what they could, they try to pick up, try to, uh, my daughter got on kitty litter duty because she's, you can't get on it when you're on chemo and you can't do, but. Sweet. Yeah. My husband, he became the cook and he still has, and he's now like a chef. He's gotten so good at cooking. Wow. And I think he's found out that this is his hobby and passion. He's just really good at it. I feel like I really had a lot of support. My aunt came to. Stay with me for a week and my cousin stayed with me for a week and then my cousin came back a couple times. It's been, it was really nice to have that and to have that support from people. I'm not usually one that will ask for help and I actually even said it. Yeah, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. But I know it was really helpful, especially when my cousin came because she would help cook, she would help drive, you know, also drive the kids to school. And it was just really, it was really nice and it, you know, and I know I've shared that my sister passed away and my sister passed away before I was diagnosed. So having, especially having my cousin visit, um. Felt very safe and very much like a, a sister visiting and yeah. But yeah, I, I feel like I did have a lot of support. I felt like my husband was the most, what you picture, someone just su such unconditional love and just really supportive and, and whatever you could think of someone being there, he was there and the kids, again, they were so little and they were so. Supportive. And I know it was so scary for them and I tried to explain it to them. And I, my doctors, my breast doctor and my oncologist were so sweet because they knew the kids were so little that they let them come to the appointments that they could come. Of course, they couldn't come to my chemo appointments, but they. My breast doctor let them come to every appointment. You know, they'd have to turn around during certain parts, but they were allowed to come so that they weren't afraid of doctors and they weren't afraid of the whole experience. Oh, that's nice. And my oncologist let them come, you know, when they're, when it was just an office visit so they could see him and meet him, and they know who's taking care of mommy and it wasn't scary for them. Have a safe connection. Yeah. With it. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And I know you had to have, unfortunately, a lot of surgeries, a lot of medical intervention from this, but could you talk a little bit about how this affected you personally at home and maybe professionally as a a therapist, when having to be able to take time off or talk to your clients about it, other family members? How was that for you? Yeah, it wa I did have to have a few surgeries, I think, including the port coming in and out. The um, portacath, I think I had six surgeries altogether within a six or eight month period. I had my mastectomy, double mastectomy, then chemo later, then reconstruction. And I had a hysterectomy too, just as a preventative because of the gene mutation. But I ended up taking a month off for each of my surgeries and. That was really important because I didn't want to, I didn't wanna work while I was drugged, but I also That's fair. Yeah. But I also wasn't sure how long it would take to heal and I didn't wanna rush it. It was difficult at first because I was a practicing therapist. I had a private practice. I tend to see my clients for a long period of time. Sometimes some I do see short, but some, it's a while. I've built relationship with a lot of'em and telling my clients. Was difficult. I waited till the end of session when we're scheduling our next appointment, and then I told them, I just found out I have this diagnosis. I'm having surgery this date. I'll be out this long. This is who will be covering for me. So it was very, that I found was very difficult and there was like hugs and tears and I had to refocus. Don't worry about me, like, you know, I'll be back. Even when you're going through this super tough, all these medical interventions in this time in your life, you have to say, don't worry about me. Yeah. But of course people are going to, because you built up a relationship and then I did. After that, I think four months after my surgery, I started chemotherapy. So I had already back in the office, and so I was seeing my clients and I had to tell'em again. I'll be starting chemotherapy and I'll be on chemo for a few months and I'll be out. I'll probably be out the weeks that I'm getting chemo. I wanted to have an open conversation with them because again, I don't want them to wonder why is she looking so pale? Why is she, but I also wanted to let them know I'm not gonna be going when I'm sick. It did affect me really bad, but I was able to, I scheduled it, so I do chemotherapy on Thursdays and then go back to work. Usually that Wednesday, so Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday usually of most week of those weeks. Some weeks it would take me. So you'd work like Monday to Wednesday kind of thing? Yeah, or I'd have that, yeah, I'd have a Wednesday i'd or sometimes I'd work just that Thursday and Friday of the week that I had chemo and. Yeah. So it was, yeah, that was hard. And it was funny'cause my oncologist used to always say that, I forget what he said, but basically that he felt like the reason why I was doing so, not doing so well, but I was able to keep going was just because I kept working, it didn't stop. Mm-hmm. And I told him I needed to keep working, even if I'm only seeing one client a week. Just because it gave me purpose and it made me, it forced me to get out of my bed and forced me to do something, and it also helped me put the focus outside of myself so that I wasn't just stuck in my head worrying about how am I gonna feel after this next chemo? What about the next surgery coming up in six months? What about the next things that may or may not happen and it grounded you a little bit? Yeah, it did, and I feel I have mixed feelings about that. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I wish I would've taken that whole year off. But I also, that's not who I, that I don't think that's who I am. I think I, I get very nervous energy and I think I would've just been a bundle of anxiety if I would've just,'cause what would I have been doing just watching reruns of Grey's Anatomy and then it's not, I don't think I would've been, been helpful. You're, you're a, you're a, I think a healer by nature. You need to be at least in the mix of it and being feeling. Kind of productive. And that's not to say that everybody has to do, that's just to say that's how it felt right for you. And it sounds like it really worked. Yeah. I mean, I did get reprimanded sometimes from my doctors telling me that I need to slow down. And actually my oncologist did tell me, you need to find somebody who's well-versed in cancer and well-versed in PTSD because he's like you people who have gone through the trauma of the physical trauma. Of the surgeries and the trauma of the chemotherapy and the trauma of losing all your hair and the trauma of losing your strength and,'cause there's so many different components to it that you don't think of when you're in it. And I'm like, I, I don't have PTSD here. Dumb. But then I started, started Well, like a true therapist. Yeah. Yeah. And I would tell'em like, I don't have PTSDs really. Because when you talk about stuff, he's like, you're very detached. Because I would, I'd be like, Hey, what's really weird? I could look at my scars and I'd feel fine. Everything's fine. I said, I'm okay. And he's really, he's, wow, you have really high eq. You're really high emotional intelligence. Then he's or you are not really letting yourself really feel. Everything. Maybe it's a little bit of both. Yeah, it's probably both. Yeah. Maybe there's that, but there's also some other parts. But it sounds like your doctor picked up on that. Wow. Your, your doctor was really, your team was really in tune with you. Yeah. And checking in and they still, and they, they still are. My team, like my, I see them every few months. Um. The oncologist and breast doctor, and they get me, they get my humor. They're both so smart and so funny, and I am so grateful that I have them, but he was right. He was 100% right about the, that I was experiencing like a form of PTSD. Hmm. Or maybe even PTSD. So it took me a while to figure that out and to find the right therapist. I think I bounced around a little bit to try to find someone who wasn't gonna be like, oh, like really making me feel sicker down in the dump. Yeah. And so that helped me process how I was feeling and what hap the changes physically. Yeah. I am the new, the, not only just the physical, which the physical. Transformations and accepting that, but also how you feel about your own identity and with the process of going through chemo. I know you had talked about the choice to to wear a wig or not, right? Because you were still seeing clients sometimes and there's a little bit of a kind of wondering if you should or if you shouldn't, and I wanted to ask you about that. How did you manage that? How was that for you? So I, as I said, I was still seeing clients and also there was a, there's a couple components, so I was still seeing clients and in my head, I guess this was in my must heel, everything needs to be right. I felt that it would be less jarring and upsetting. Which I'm looking back, I'm laughing'cause I've seen myself with the stupid wig. I'm sorry. Some people look great in wigs. I felt like, just like, I don't know how to do makeup. I did not know how to put my stupid wig on. So I'm like, why didn't I just straighten it out a little bit? But I, I, I saw pictures of you at that point and I saw, and I honestly, I thought it looked great. Really. But I know that how you felt about it. Maybe different, right? Yeah. Maybe I'll post some pictures on Instagram when we have this. Yeah. But, but yeah, I felt like I needed to, so I even went to one of my, one of my, one of my very good friends came down to Florida. I guess that's another person. She came to Florida after my very first chemo was done and met me. And we ended up going to, this place is, that's like a drag drag place where they sell wigs. Because of course that's what I would do. That matches that. That tracks. Yeah, because why not? Why go to the cancer place that sells wigs? Why not goes to the place where a drag queen is? That's so fun. It was so I ended up having him help me with the wig and my girl girlfriend was there and it was fun and I picked one, but then I was like, looking back, I wish I would've gone for one of the ones that were completely opposite of what I am. But I was also thinking the kids were really little. I wanted to be able to wear it to school functions. Again, some people look great, but they're so hot. Especially if you're going through chemo, you're already hot. Then that's why like those little caps are really nice'cause they absorb the sweat. Like it's, it's very Oh really? Yeah. So that's something I, I wouldn't even know that that's, yeah.'cause your scalp gets cold, but also gets really sweaty when you're going through chemo. It's just so much discomfort. And again, looking at pictures of myself, I'm thinking my skin was so pale. I don't know if I had eyebrows, but I had a stereotypical steroid little moon face. You knew I had chemo, you knew I had cancer. Probably just looking at me, whether I had a wig on or not. Personally, I saw pictures during this, and this is just my personal opinion. I would, I don't, I think there's obviously probably a high self-consciousness. You've just gone through this trauma. You're having to take medication. It's changing your body, it's taking away your hair and things like that, and having to adjust to all those things. It probably. Brings a high level of like personal oof self-consciousness, but I do not, I do not think you, you looked, I think you maybe felt that way, understandably, because you're going through a lot right. In that transformation. But I thought you looked good. Like really, it really was not something from the outside view like you, that you could say, oh yeah, for sure. She's, you know. Oh, but I, but I do understand that feeling. Like I, I understand you're probably felt that way with all this. Yeah, this going. But yeah. So it sounds, it sounds like there was this feeling of, I don't this thought put into your head and maybe you, I think like you said, you didn't want it to be jarring for your clients. And of course, us as therapists, we're always looking at how do I make my, my client feel, how do I set them up to be comfortable? So that's totally understandable that you would think that, but it's, it's a very unique perspective when you are diagnosed with a disease like. Right. Breast cancer and determining if you want to wear a wig or not, and if it's for yourself or for your clients or for just in general. You just feel more comfortable that way. Yeah. But you had to decide that on your own journey. And then you also had some people that maybe weren't so helpful in that, like maybe they thought they were being, but maybe it was. Yeah. Maybe not the best. Yeah, I at that point. It always make me laugh. Like if I was somewhere, if either it was a new client or a parent or something and maybe they didn't know I like a parent of my kid's school or something.'cause some I wasn't, didn't know everybody. It would be like, oh, you really, you're here today. I would just laugh to myself. Well, thanks. It's not gonna move. It's not moving. And that's, that's so funny because it really, it, I mean, it, it was probably genuine. It was like, oh, it looks different and this, and some people may not have even, they just may have thought, oh, she's doing something different with her hair. You know, like it really, and maybe, you know, you know, it, it just wasn't as, as noticeable as maybe it felt, because you are going through all those, right. Those. Changes and everything and all that. Just everything that you had to go through at that time. Right. And in terms of, I know you talked about professionally with having to take some time off, letting your clients know, and obviously that's something that therapists or professionals, they have to decide for themselves, but it sounds like that was something that was a good decision for you because it, it let them know and be aware so that they may be, you didn't want them to, to worry it sounds when you were. Of course putting, you were putting them first, which I know is obviously what we always do as therapists. Yeah. But how was that for you personally? Was that tough to balance at home and to have that perspective or, I know you talked about that that was something that helped you to focus outside of some of the process, but how is it just with. Like family life and things like that. Yeah. It was hard. Like I said, my husband, he showed up probably more ways than most husbands or partners could or would he just, he had to, he continued working. He took a lot of time off. He was here. He became the cook and the shopper and the driving the kids to school when I wasn't able to. It's just he was very present, you know, doing the little projects with them and because a lot of times with well after the surgeries Oh, and he also was. He is, you know, he was stuck doing all the gross stuff too, like after surgery, all of that bandages and all that and changing and, and helping you out. Yeah. So he really showed up and I was very grateful that I had him and the kids and family that came and helped and friends, and it was very, again, I'm not someone that would ask for help, so that was very hard. Not being able to get up and have dinner some days, or not being able to drive the kids to school or not even. Having the energy to pet Paige or during that time my cats were all around my bed because they probably, animals are very instinct. They know. Yeah. But Paige doesn't jump on beds'cause she is a baby. She's not able to, she's a good girl. Yeah, she, yeah. She's never been a furniture dog. But yeah, so it was really, it was hard at that time to. Stay still. And that's also my oncologist used to always get annoyed at me.'cause sometimes I'd be like, I have to go do something. So I'd be, go in my garden and then I'd have chemotherapy and I'd have like a thousand amp bytes on my legs. And he's really, what is wrong with you? And I'm like, I would get, I'd get reprimanded. He is like, you realize your white blood cell account is like nothing. And you're, so, I had to, I'm like, all right, he's, you have to wear boots, you have to wear gloves, you have to, you know, got some scoldings. Yes. Or don't do it. He'd be like, or just stay inside. Be normal. Why can't you just, well, I think that's a big part of it, is that your personality is very much, you always, you like to be doing something. Mm-hmm. You like to be, you're not a person who can just sit around and do nothing. And that's a tough part to accept that, okay, I just need to sit and relax and also cut down my hours with my job, my purpose. Right. So it was, it sounds like it was a struggle. It was really hard. Yeah. That part. You're trying your best. And it's funny'cause I bought, I how when you're sick or you have cancer, people are always like, here's a journal, here's some books, here's some magazines, here's this. I'm like, oh, that's great. I'll just read and I'll do this. I'll catch up on shows. It's really hard to focus when you're on medication or you're on, so I'm like, all right, I'll just stare or not watch anything or try not to get annoyed at looking at the same page of whatever I'm doing. So I didn't do any of the. Things that we always tell clients, okay, do this and it'll make your mind feel better or, yeah. Yeah. So for me it's cuttering and doing things and fog and, right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It can affect you, which is another struggle just to relax and to even be present, how the medication rattles you in that way. Yeah. You know, it does, and you still, to this day, you still have you, you have ongoing appointments for. For life, right. For monitoring and yeah. Other types of cancers to monitor for that encompass possibility, those unique cancers and everything too, right? Yeah. Yeah, because I, I am past the five year mark, so woo hoo. I had was triple negative breast cancer. And I'm five years past, so I am considered no evidence of disease, but because I have that gene mutation, the B rca, A two, I'm monitored, I'll be monitored. My oncologist and the breast doctor said that I'll be seeing them like every six months forever. Plus, I see a GI doctor. For screening once a year, because other abdominal cancers can be part of that, which is one of the things with it. But I'm really glad, I always tell my gynecologist that I'm really grateful that she asked those questions or that she actually read my answers. Because so often doctors will ask the questions, so look at it and they'll be like, okay, oh, let me just see you and not even go over any of que these answers that you filled out on the sheet. She actually paused and looked at them and said, Hey, wait a minute. These are really weird answers. Let's review this and let's go deeper. And so I always told her, I'm like, you literally saved my life because the type of cancer I had is very aggressive. Mm-hmm. And like triple negative is very aggressive. Like it's a fast grower. And so I was told like they wouldn't have found it. I would've just been doing the once a year mon monitoring by mammogram and it probably wouldn't have been found because it wasn't found just a few months before when I had a mammogram and it was only found on the MRI. Yeah. So that vigilance, that, that kind of attention to those answers, which is what you are hoping is being looked at, but sometimes you're right, it does get overlooked. It sounds like that was really like, wait a minute, let's actually look at this. Mm-hmm. Which is the purpose of asking those questions, but yeah, it is, it's really great that, in that you're past five years. I don't know if they say cancer free or in terms of, yeah. Is there a technical term for that? Yeah. Well, they say it's like NED, no evidence of disease. Yeah. But we are all very glad that, of course. You're, you had a, a great team. You did the research on your own. You had that vigilance as well, and knowing those cancers that were present in your family right. And educating yourself on that, as hard as that was. Before we go, do you have any advice or, or words of wisdom to people that maybe are starting within this journey or have gone through it already? Yeah. With people who are not sure about their medical history or they know like they're. Mother they're on. If they might be on the mother's side, maybe ask, talk to your doc doctors about that or get your full family history and maybe explain to your doctors and ask if you're a candidate for the genetic testing to begin with, if that's a possibility. If you are diagnosed, it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to accept the help. That's something. I took me a a little bit to realize and then I realized, oh, wait a minute. They're asking because they wanna help. They're asking because they wanna be there for me. I'm not a burden. So that's something to remind yourself, that when people are there for you or they're showing up, they're not being forced to. They wanna be there for you and they wanna help you because they care. Yeah, absolutely. And words of wisdom we're, we're so glad that, um, you know, you are, um, past the point of the NED, um, for, or we can say five years. Yeah. More than five years past that, right? Because I was diagnosed in 2018, so it's been a little bit. Yeah, so we're really, I appreciate, and I'm sure the listeners really appreciate you sharing this experience. I know this is very personal, but I think there's a lot of wisdom in there, a lot of understanding and tell people, no, they're not alone in this. And I think it's very much an important topic that that needs to be talked about, especially for breast Cancer Awareness Month, but just in general. Yeah. Thank you so much. For doing that. That's great. And thank you Tanya for interviewing me. Yeah, of course. Yeah, we, we will. This was a special bonus episode. We will have another episode the following week. So you get three in October. Yeah. And this is great one. We also want to remind you to follow us on Instagram at Wicked Psychotherapists. Subscribe and write us a review. It really helps us out. If you can, it does write that review would really appreciate it. In closing, we will say, and don't forget to stay wicked and keep your mind well. Yes. All right. Take care guys. Okay. Bye-bye. Oh, okay. Bye. Bye guys. Look at.