Greetings And Salutations: A Look Into The Movie Heathers

"Greetings and Salutations!" 

This week on Wicked Psychotherapists, Erin and Tanya dive into the cult classic Heathers. 

From its biting social commentary to the twisted relationship between Veronica and JD, we explore the film’s dark humor, high school hierarchy, and deep psychological layers. 

What makes Heathers timeless, and how does its portrayal of cliques, manipulation, and mental health still resonate today? 

Plus, we discuss a fascinating fan theory about JD and debate whether Veronica’s ending is as triumphant as it seems. 

Join us for an 80s nostalgia trip with plenty of wicked insights!

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram @WickedPsychotherapists, subscribe, and leave a review. 

Stay wicked and keep your mind well!

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Transcript

0:08

You are listening to Wicked Psychotherapists, a podcast where two psychotherapists show you that taking care of and learning about mental health doesn't have to be wicked hard.

Tanya: 0:31

Hey everyone, this is Tanya. Hi, this is Erin and welcome to Wicked Psychotherapist. So today we are going to be talking about another Winona Ryder classic because we're on a Winona Ryder brain. so I don't know, um, if people like this or not, um, the ones that are tuning in, obviously if you're listening, you, you do. thanks for understanding our brain. Yeah, we're, that's just the way we go. We go 80s, we go classic, we go Winona Cher, yeah. so, today we're going to be talking about the classic Heathers, which is amazing. Love Heathers. if you have not seen this movie, and you are not of our generation, that being like the Gen X, slightly, like, older. Millennial esque generation. you may, this may seem a bit, there may be some elements in this that may seem kind of crass or kind of like outdated as they are. Not PC. Yeah, very much not. it's a dark, like, kind of, I think commentary on a lot of things, but it is wonderful. It's got Christian Slater in it, which we both agreed we, we loved at the time, and he's probably still great now, but we don't really see him too much. but, uh, lots of, lots of mental health goodies packed in here. So many mental health. Yeah. I think issues, things to. explore, even possible fan theories that I do want to bring up that one that we were talking about. I think it'd be interesting just to see because it kind of was like, oh wow, it's just a whole new way to look at it. But, so anyway, so this movie is, came out in, what, 89? Again, in the line of all the movies we've been talking about, like Beetlejuice and Mermaids, Edward Scissorhands. And so it was that late 80s kind of point of view, talking about a group of gals named Heather who are in this high powered popular clique in high school. And then there's Winona Ryder who is Veronica. She's a Veronica who is accepted into this group. and there's, we, we start to realize there's like a, a definite hierarchy to, each of these, Heathers and Veronica. We start to see all these things. Issues coming in, all these things that make Veronica want to kind of say like, oh, I don't really want to be a part of this, but she still kind of does. And all the things that happen in between. Yeah. I just have to say the slang in there is amazing. The, the like, get crucial. What's your damage? Like, you know, the, the phrasing of like, it's so 80s and the clothing is, is like the big poofy hair. I love that. That's something that I think everyone wearing, tights with their dresses. Yes! Like multi colored tights. Oh, that I used to love those. Me too! They're coming back! I've seen, I've seen them, and, so. Well, we gotta get some, some multi colored tights done. I want purple. Purple and green. But, yeah, so, we, we see, You know, this, that in the Heather clique, there's three different Heathers, they all happen to be named Heather, but they, the, the one who leads Heather Chandler, she is, kind of always chooses to, to wear red as like her, her power color, her, her chosen color, when they play, are playing, what's it called, croquet, at the beginning, she always is, she's always red, kind of indicating she's the one that's in power, she's the one that sets the rules. We also see the other two Heathers. One, Heather McNamara. She's yellow. She's kind of more passive. doesn't really know what she wants. Just kind of listens and seems kind of depressed. And nobody seems to really notice that. Right. but kind of just follows along. And then Heather Duke, who's played by Shannon Doherty, which is amazing. Um, right before 90210, I think. Right? I don't remember when 902, I feel like it was, I think that came out in like the early 90s. So I think it was probably right before. Yeah. But she is great in that she is, kind of the Heather that she's seemingly very meek and passive is dealing with an eating disorder. But she really wants the power, that Heather Chandler, the red Heather, commands and yields. So, we start to see kind of some of the dynamics play out with some of the Heathers and Veronica when Heather Chandler, the red, I'm just going to say the colors. Yeah, because I don't, yeah, I was going to say, I don't know their last names, Yeah, it's kind of, for some reason I looked this up before and it kind of stuck in my head, but let's just use the colors. Yeah, just Heather. So the red Heather, she invites Veronica to a college party and she's kind of trying to pressure her into being with her boyfriend's friend, or Heather is trying to pressure Veronica into being with like, kind of, you know, going and doing stuff sexually with the, the friend Veronica's not into it. She drank too much. She kind of can't really like, hang at the level that red Heather wants her to. And so she acts all over her, her shoes. Veronica does. Red Heather is just, like, lovin that. Well, plus, wasn't, I think her and JD were together by this time, too. Yeah, that's another thing, is, yeah, exactly. She had met JD, which is a character who's, he's, got a lot of layers to him, which is, you know, Christian Slater. But he's, he comes in in like a black trench coat, he kind of quotes things from literature, like greetings and salutations from, what is it, Charlotte's Web? Yeah, like greetings and salutations. Yeah, he's kind of got like, you could tell he's not he's not a dummy, but he's very much antisocial, he's outside of kind of the norms of everything, and Veronica's very attracted to this. Mm hmm. Well, why do you think she's kind of like into that? Well, it's complete opposite of everything that she's been groomed and expected because she's with the little popular click and she's very Obviously, I assume her family is very wealthy so they probably expose her to a certain type of people that they want her to be around and probably a lot of the upper level jocks and people who are very wealthy and JD doesn't appear to from the outside doesn't appear like he's Really cares much about the materialistic stuff though. It does seem like his father is doing pretty well with his company or something he Explodes building. So I'm not sure what his dad does but But yeah, but he's a complete differently, you know, like when she first sees him in the cafeteria he sit in the corner Kind of just watching and lurking just watching. What are these heathers doing? Why are they taking these surveys table to table which that's so obnoxious to that They feel like they are just so important that everyone in the cafeteria is going to stop eating and want to answer their stupid Question that they have yeah, but they kind of want oh wait heathers. The heathers are looking at me. They're talking to me So jd is just watching the whole time and I think that in and veronica is like looking and she probably is like Oh He's really different. He's, you know, he's dark and, you know, he's wearing black. He's not wearing a color. He's intriguing. He looks mysterious. So she probably likes, you know, like that complete opposite of what she's been exposed to probably her whole life. Yeah, for sure. I think it's definitely something that's different. And in the land that she's in, the world that she's in, the Heathers have just kind of that social, I don't know, those social norms have, have just been dominating for so long that she was like, Oh, I could, I could deal with, with some of that, you know? And then they, of course, do some little flirty flirts. And she goes and asks him the lunchtime poll and he's like, What's a Heather? What's a Veronica? You know, like these things are foreign to me, and she kind of likes that. Yeah, yeah, he's like, are you Heather? And she's like, no, I'm a Veronica. Yeah, and which is kind of telling. Yeah, she definitely is a Veronica, and he's like, all right, I like Veronica's. but that's, that's very cute. I think they dated in real life too, right? Christian Slater and Winona Ryder. I think they were dating during that time. I don't know, because I think that was the same time that Johnny Johnny and her work. Maybe that's maybe we're is this the controversy people? Did her and johnny end up because of christian slater? Is this? Are we uncovering it? Are we TMZ? Or has this already been so covered and everyone's like, yeah, they're like, Erin and Tanya, that's like 40 years ago. We're just, we're like, breaking news! Oh my god, from 1989. News from 1988. Oh my god. it's funny because it says 1988 on Wikipedia, but it says 1989 on different sources, too. I don't know what year it came out, so it's around there, but, so maybe it was, were they dating? I don't know. I don't remember, I remember thinking and wanting them to date in real life, but I don't know. Yeah, they definitely had good chemistry. Like, they were. I mean, for sure in that movie, but yeah, it says they dated briefly in the late 1980s after co starring in the film Heathers. So, their relationship began around 1988 and continued through 1989, about a year or so? Mm hmm. Okay, wait. It said it lasted only for two weeks before ending. So two weeks or two years. Come on, Inquirer. We're not sure, because this is, I'm just Googling this like a pure Google, so it's like AI information that's gathered all around. It's kind of like when it came out is kind of, I'm seeing 1989, 1988. Who knows? but they dated at some point, right? So, this was probably before Johnny. Hi Johnny. Cause that's what we talked about in our, one of our last episodes, you know, that Johnny did. We're obviously like just kind of a podcast that's following Winona Ryder and like Cher. Maybe we're gonna, our new change, our new podcast name is gonna be Winona Cher. You know, I don't, Winona, Winona, Winona, Cher. And then like what, whoever else, we just keep adding on their name and then we'll just start doing movies of people she dated. Like that's because I just saw she dated Rob Lowe, Christian Slater. Did she really? She dated our Rob Lowe. I know you know Rob Lowe. So, yeah, we're now an entity. We love them. Yes. So, yes. Matt Damon, Oh, really? Yeah. so there's quite a few. Well, no, we're gonna do a whole profile, like this is basically just a dedication, a love letter to you. Yes. We love you. Yeah, and then we, you know, mental health and stuff. Yeah, I mean, yeah, well, we're not gonna forget that part of it. The wicked Winona's. Oh my god, that's We just change our, our name like whenever we get into obsession. we become obsessed. Cause you know it's all gonna be in the 80s, like, it's all gonna originate from there. Well, and it's all women, it's strong women, it's, you know, it's Yeah, great, great actresses, they've left an impression, yeah. so, there's definitely a draw between JD and Veronica as there was in real life. and they start to date and this kind of conflicts with how Veronica acts and, the Heathers are kind of like, Oh, where's Billy the kid? You know, kind of thing. And they kind of notice that she's spending some time with him. And, she's introduced to some new elements, right? Because he kind of starts to question like, why do you have to do these lunchtime polls? Or like mm-hmm Why do you do this? And Veronica's kind of like, well, because they're, you know, this is kind of how she does it and you know, this is kind of how, how we do things. And he's like, but why? He kind of has her questioning that. Yeah. Even though she's. She's kind of on the verge there herself. Yeah, that's why she's attracted. Yeah, because I think like, you know The first question was sometimes about aliens or something else and it's like really? Let me just answer this question Because Heather is asking it yeah, you kind of see this established like everybody knows that they set the trends these heathers and all they're like dumb jock boyfriends right there's the stereotypical jocks that are in their curtain Ram which we have more to talk about with them later, but they, you know, they're like they set the standard and JD is very much like. F the standard kind of thing, you know, like that's, that's just not for me and why should you, you know, question it and anarchy and this and he even like gives, He gives that book to Do you remember he gives the book on like anarchy and he's like I need your I need your strength to heather duke Yeah, like to kind of be like you become this this yeah You become you should become the new heather that yeah, he's like trying to incite chaos Like yeah, and then she takes it. She bites into it.

Erin and Tanya: 12:34

you've probably already watched spoilers,

Tanya: 12:38

Spoilers over 30 years ago. Yeah, but yeah, and so after a while, you know, there's there's the after the Remington party incident where, you know, Heather, Red Heather is basically like, I'm going to, you know, damage this is going to like ruin your whole reputation. You know, you couldn't hang this. You're going to go back to like Playing with like your your nerdy friends kind of thing. That's where I found you. Veronica kind of says like she's, you know, hey, this is what's going on. And JD is kind of, you know, probably pissed that like, hey, that's my that's my girl, you know, first off, but like, also, we can really get her back. Yeah, and it's it Veronica is like throughout the whole movie is like angrily writing in her diary, which again, that's a that's a Winona Ryder thing. It's like every Every director is like, you know, let's have Winona write in a diary or marry. Yeah. She's a good introspective, introverted person that'll, that it'll benefit her character. Yes, and it definitely does so we're here for that. But it does seem like she starts talking about, like, that she, you know, Heather dead and you know, so she's just writing this and then. J. D. climbs in the window and then she's just, he's, she's raw and upset and so they start talking about it. It's like, all right, let's make it happen. Let's get her sick. Cause they, they know that she's sick from drinking too much at that party at home. so then he kind of convinces her which is like one of those manipulations things too. it's like one of those moral ethics, ethical things with, you know, Veronica. She sees J. D. pour the, Drano or whatever it is into a mug, and she's like, oh no, no, we just want to get her sick with orange juice and milk and make her throw up. wouldn't that be funny? And like she's thinking more kind of like, Oh, like something gross or yucky, like to make her just like feel gross and like know that we'd ha ha. She ingested that right? And he's like, Oh, no. And then she accidentally grabs the poison one. He doesn't stop her. But also, she had to have seen it when she opened the lid, because it's bright blue. So it's not, you know, like orange or whatever color the orange and milk was. Well, I think it was kind of like, I don't know if she saw that, but like she, I think she had the sense that JD was kind of not joking, you know, like she kind of, and there was a part of her that was like, hey, I kind of deeply want this, but I don't think she wanted that, I don't think she wanted to act it out, but she did hand her the Drano, and this is where that odd fan theory comes in that I never thought, that I thought was kind of interesting that, this is not to say this is true, this is just kind of positing like a what if, what if we looked at it from this angle kind of thing. That JD is a figment of, Veronica's imagination. And that, like, he's kind of the angry part that can act on these things that she actually really kind of wants subconsciously but maybe can't really fulfill, sort of thing. Yeah, very Fight Club vibes there. Yes, yes, exactly. And so Heather Heather's like, you know, of course red Heather is like, oh, what did you did you like blow a loogie in there? Or whatever 80s term she says You know and then she drinks it because of course she's not she's not against a dare and she just keeps drinking Drano, which I can't imagine. I think she's just drinking it so fast, like, oh, I'll just get through this, because that's how, that's how powerful she needs people to see her, that like, oh, she won't back down from anything. and her last, her last words are corn nuts. Yes. That's so awful. Corn nuts. I mean, that's just. Yeah, because she doesn't want to swear. It's like all she wants is something, just this basic food of just corn nuts. It's just like so low for shallow existence. I think that's her way of saying like, ah, crap or something like that. Because that's what she would say. I don't think she wants to eat them. Because while I thought corn nuts was like what she ate. No, she said that whenever she was like, ah, corn nuts. It's like, oh, really? I don't think I never even noticed that. That'd be so funny. So even as she's dying, I mean, not literally funny, but that's so like, strange, like, literally, as She's dying. She's nuts. I don't even swear. Yeah. She's still a lady. Yeah. That's what it was. It's still about her image. instead of like throwing an F bomb or something. Oh. okay. I didn't even realize that. So that makes sense then. Yeah. So she's like, not even, her image is still to the, to her last dying breath. Mm hmm. It's still important to her. So that kind of shows the strength of how much image goes into, you know, like, okay, you have to put up a show to be the one in power. you have to live it. You have to do it even up until you die. And then, of course, we know that with JD's encouragement and with Heather, Green Heather, Shannon Doherty, always wanting to be like Heather. She starts to kind of move into her spot. Yeah. Because Like Winona said, you know, you cut off one Heather's head, or maybe it was JD that said it. Yeah, you cut off one Heather's head, it's gonna sprout a new one in its place, and he knows that. Yeah, and Heather, Shannon Doherty, Heather, end up going into the locker, Red Heather's, and getting the bow. And then all of a sudden she has the red bow in her hair, and she's transformed into this powerhouse of Heather. You know, like all of a sudden she's not this meek. person anymore. It's like, now I'm gonna just, you know, everyone's gonna do what I want. Yeah, there's like, it's the image of like, you know, the red scrunchie represents Tower, or like, I'm in this position. And so people, like, I'm going to start doing lunchtime pulls, I'm going to start to do the same things that kind of kept everyone In place. I was gonna say in check. Yeah, that's, yeah, in place. Yeah, so they know what's up. Yeah, and so, and, and there's a whole like, you know, if you look at the color psychology of that, you know, as we all know, red is like kind of power and green is kind of envy. And then we have the other Heather who, is yellow. She's, she's kind of struggling with depression and she, she has this point where she, She calls up one of their favorite radio stations. It's like a problem solving hot probs. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, probs. 1 800 HOT PROBS. Yeah. 1 800 HOT PROBS. And she, she kind of says, like, I'm depressed. You know, my parents are divorced. The last guy I, was with, Killed Himself, which is another, kind of set up by JD, and, Heather Duke, the green Heather, laughs at it, and passes it all around, because she's like, oh, we're gonna make fun of that, because that's exposing a vulnerability, that's not cool. Yeah, even though your friend is depressed. But then in the meantime, they're glamorizing Red Heather's suicide, so it's kind of like this opposing force of like, that was cool because she was cool, but Heather Chandler, the yellow Heather was very Much like actually having mental health issues and then wants to go and kill herself. She does try and Veronica stops her with the pills in the bathroom. Yeah. And she's like, what are you doing? And they actually have a real moment. And yeah, and the yearbook committee is like, okay, we're going to make a two page spread. We're going to post her suicide note. We're going to do all this, which is so awful. You know, like if, you know, if it was in real life, it's like, you know. Yeah, it is very much glamorizing and it's making the other kids just be like, okay, well, would I get this much attention? You know, like there's that song, like, so, you know, like, yes, teenage suicide, don't do it. You know by I can't remember the shirt, but they all have the shirt fun big fun. Yeah, cuz that's the shirt that That that one girl is wearing Martha Martha Yeah, and so that's it too. It's like, okay. Well, we're gonna you play the song again for the 20 million time You don't think it's yeah, it's like such a trend but like then you actually see someone struggling with it and other you know, and Martha tries to you know, she's very much, ridiculed, she's bullied for her, her weight, for how she looks. And she actually is like, I want to, you know, she goes out and tries to kill herself, puts a sign on her, and tries to like, belly flop, into traffic, It gets mocked. That gets mocked. Like, these are actual, like, mental health suicide predictors that maybe it wasn't really fully understood then, but I think it's pretty common sense to say that that could, if they tried it, then it could lead to suicide, Yeah, and also, in poor Martha, she had a lot of signs, too. Like, she was isolated, she was mocked, she was bullied, she was probably depressed, you find out one of the Veronica's, yellow Veronica and her used to be best friends when they're little Or it was green, was it green Heather? Okay, yeah, I can't, it's Shannon Doherty. Oh, was it? Okay, but yeah, but so that's also Probably difficult. So you, then you see you're one of your old best friends now, like a super jerk, you know, like, and just very popular and mocking you and publicly ridiculing you. So it's, it is probably hard. Yeah. And it was kind of like, Veronica's friend Betty Finn and, I think Veronica still is like, Oh, hi, she wants to be friendly, friendly with her. And then Red Heather, when she's still alive is like, what are you doing? That's like social suicide. And, you know, you see all these set up the setup of these rules. Then you see with JD, how he kind of sets up and manipulates Veronica into. Basically, murdering, you know, the Heather, Red Heather, and then the, the two jocks, Duke and Kurt and Ram, Kurt and Ram, But you also see that there's a, there's a small part of Veronica that kind of knows, and, and Jamie calls her out on that. Yeah, like what, yeah, like with the, with the guys. This is kind of what you want. Yeah, because the guy is like, he said that, Oh, no, they're blanks. It's different than blanks is these other type of bullets that. These German bullets. These German bullets that, you know, it's like, it's like, what, that doesn't make sense that, you know, they'll be sedated for a little bit. It'll look like they're dead, but they're not really dead. So and then when she shoots one of them right in the neck, she's like, Oh my gosh, I don't think he's waking up. I don't think he's okay. And then he runs down and, you know, kills the other one. And after it's all done, you know, she's like, we really killed them or, you know, he's like, yeah, he's like, I think you knew that the whole time you just wanted to believe what you wanted to believe, which a lot of times we do and, you know, and their relationship is so toxic and he's very good at manipulating her and manipulating what the truth is and finding her. Weaknesses and her vulnerabilities of oh, well, she's upset at these guys. So how do I you know, turn her Anger into something that I want to do because he probably is like, ah, I hate these jocks or hate these types This is my seventh school. I've been to in a couple years I know how everybody is, you know, cuz he keeps saying that he's like, you know I different school same type of people say so he could be acting on his aggression for You know, there's probably been other people like Heather in different schools the other type of jock So he's probably you know, always been ostracized and just like I want to seek revenge on this Yeah, he knows the roles and he's very much decided. I don't want any part of it In fact, I want to actually at this point destroy it and this is how I'm going to do it And he's got his own backstory JD. You know, his, his, you see the interactions with his dad, it's very odd, it's very, as you pointed out, very disconnected. The dad talks in a point of view from like, hey dad, here's my girlfriend, and he speaks for him. It's kind of like how they let their needs be known. They have a very bizarre way of communicating. We learn that his mom, first it says like accidentally got blown up by one of the dad's explosives in a building, but then you realize she did it intentionally. J. D. is aware of that, so he's probably pretty messed up from that, probably some resentment, some disconnect, major, struggles moving from school to school, and not feeling like he's accepted, and just seeing the same roles over and over again, and being like, what is the point of this? This is so stupid, but it's, it's actually kind of turned him You know, to, to a point that we, we wouldn't call healthy, right, to, to deal with it. it's actually kind of the, I, I thought of this, the trench coat kind of reminds me of the, of Columbine, where they wore the, the trench coats. And that, that was, you know, about eight, eight years later or so, 90, 97, 98, 99, late 90, 99, I think it was. so maybe like a decade later, but kind of that feeling of like the ostracized person, you know, they get so angry and they start to come up with different means of. some people can be pushed to their limits and we don't really know what that looks like. Yeah for everybody and yeah what the signs are and why and you know JD, you know, definitely probably had some antisocial I don't know personality. I don't know if his personality disorder or what was happening, but we had traits. He definitely had traits, he had the trauma of his mom, he probably knew in his heart that it was his dad's fault and that's probably why he was very cold and distant and his dad also probably separated himself from J. D. because of maybe J. D. reminded him of his mom. Who knows? Yeah. Lots of layers. Yeah, there's a lot of layers to J. D. and he found Veronica, he probably was like, Oh, here's someone. She's pretty. She doesn't really fit into she's not a Heather so she doesn't really fully fit into that group She's there, but just on a string because her name isn't Heather So they're just kind of let it and they keep reminding her to you know You weren't you weren't always cool and popular because of us because of me you are and he probably sees this too Yeah, and the fact that she doesn't dismiss him, like, she wouldn't just be like, oh, whatever, like, she actually kind of engages, like, she's intrigued by him, and he knows that, he's very manipulative, he can pick up on that very quickly, you know, he's a, he's a smart person, and I, I would say he's also kind of sociopathic too, he, he seems to not really care that he's killing these people, you have to also think about like how the administration is acting brown to all of this. Like when all the. You know, students are killing themselves or you know, they're talking about like, oh, well the popular ones or the pretty ones and and the annoying hippie ish teacher. I don't know what role she has, if she's an English teacher, if she just is just floating around the teacher's lounge, but she then makes everyone like hold hands, do this kumbaya type of thing and just all right, we're She's exploiting it. Oh look, the news crews is here now and we're, we're all, we're all in this, you know, it's, so it wasn't really because she wanted to help heal the children, the kids. It was, how can I have my 15 minutes of fame? Yeah. And like, look what I'm doing to, to help with this. Like, look at my part in this trend and lock your paws. The cameras are here kind of thing. So even, you see, even the teacher is getting in on it and It kind of brings you back to high school and you remember what a bubble it is. I think probably a lot of people can relate to this, that you, it seems like just the whole world is made up of these elements and they're not going to change and you're like stuck in it and it just feels so present and forever. Yeah, it is. It's very heavy and it feels very It's like this weird little, you know, of people that you're, you're in School with every day that you wouldn't normally interact with and usually high schools are a couple different middle schools combined Too so here you have again people you would never have met Unless now they're in your high school and there's all these different cliques and all these different Social groups that you had to figure out. How am I going to interact with them? And yeah, you do come across like heatherish type of people and yeah, it's difficult. and, you know, it's interesting because with the quote of, I've seen the J. D. saying I've gone to different schools and it's all the same people, right? You know, like the different roles. And I think that's actually true for even generations that the generation, like it's kind of, it's evolved in how we see like the popular people or the people that are You know, kind of like the outcasts, but it's still, you still have the hierarchy. It's still, it's still there. I mean, like, I can't really speak to nowadays. I'm not too in the know nowadays. You're not in high school anymore? Yeah, and I don't have any access to that. I don't, I don't work with high school kids, you know, like as clients. But I, young adults and things like that, it, it sounds like it's very different, but it's very much the same. Yeah. And I can even remember from, you know, I went to high school in the late 90s, you know, and graduated in the early 2000s, and it was different than Heather's, but it was the same, you knew who the popular kids were, you knew who the outcasts were, you knew who the kids were that you made fun of, and you knew who the kids were that just kind of weren't maybe considered or were just kind of outside of that Right. you know, and just kind of that. Yeah. Mm hmm. but it is interesting, though, because it still can stand the test of time, I think, even now. Yeah. Even though people would say, like, oh, that's so outdated, a lot of the Like you can you can still apply. Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely principles. Yeah, cuz it is I mean like it's even if it's not like, oh wait we don't say that or we don't talk like that or we don't do that, but it if you take away some of the Words and you know different things people are doing there's still that there's still the relationships. There's still the Ostracism that it's still all there. It's still also the yeah the way teachers may or may not treat More of the popular people a little bit different because it's still there too. Mm hmm. Yeah Yeah, and it may be you know in like maybe smaller communities or maybe not even you know If the teachers like our friends with some of their parents or you know things like that or went to school with them Yes as Students, I don't know but or maybe their siblings who they just liked or liked a lot but I think that it really is something that can, like, there's a lot of body shaming in this, there's a lot of, anti gay rhetoric, things like that, that I think would totally not stand up nowadays in terms of, a movie, the way that it was presented, but those, Now it's just kind of, it's different things, but it still is the same. Yeah. there's still a way to outcast people. There's still a way to delineate and make hierarchies. Whether it's, you know, maybe people are doing it more on social media or they're finding other things to talk about people and it's still, the hurt is still there with kids and teens It's, you know, the bullying is still happening. It just might not be, and maybe it is, and maybe some instance it is just as loud and as obnoxious and as telling, but maybe they're going behind the scenes a little bit. I'm actually curious about that. If anybody is, you know, aware of that, like if they're a teacher or in school themselves or have just been in school, if they have any insight to Let us know how you feel like different, groups are outlined or how that is, because I have heard from younger generations that it's not as, defined, but I think that just means outwardly. Yeah, I do too. I think it's still there. I think people are, you know, it would be wonderful if it wasn't. It would be great if there was like magic way that all, clicks, all, You know, different people just got along, but all the time, but I don't know if that happens. And unfortunately, you know, there's still going to be some people that are left out and there's still going to be people that Manipulate people who might not have the highest self esteem or self worth like JD did with Veronica. yeah, and it's interesting because we see, you know, at the end, JD is, he comes over to To kill Veronica and she's already came up with a plan to hang herself so that he kind of can't do anything and then he kind of in his, his grief is just kind of like saying his thoughts out loud and is like, Oh, I had green Heather, Heather Dukes, like have everyone sign this, this petition that I can blow up the school. This is what really is interesting. He wants them to agree to it. it's underhanded. Obviously they don't know. They think that the group big fun is coming, but he wants them to kind of be like, we did ourselves in. He needs that. That's like part of his thinking, the paradigm. So then also it'd be a huge thing too. So it'd be in the grand thing, like here's one whole. Establishment that agreed, like, we messed up, we have not been doing this right. So we want to end it. And then it'd be proven JD right that all school systems or all people or all whatever it is, is, it helps the world view come into play. It makes him correct. Yeah, it makes him and it probably makes him his world makes sense, like, oh, my mom was right to have wanted to have, Blown herself up because you know if if things are bad, that's that's just that's what you should do You should remove yourself from it. You know, maybe it kind of justifies that hurt. Oh god. We are we are therapists. Yeah, you know, so and it is probably full circle to you like here's JD his mom You know killed himself. His dad just came back all excited hey watch this video of this building blowing up and but you know, like it's So it's almost like he's getting both like, okay, well this is how my mom ended her life. And my dad is very proud when things blow up. He might not notice me fascinating to him, but he notices buildings blowing up. So I'd get my dad's attention. Pays attention. And then we know that JD ends up, you know, Veronica catches him, stops the bomb. He straps it on himself. Well, my fa he goes outside, well before that. I love it when they're in the boiler room. And jd, you know, she has the gun and he's like, oh, you know, he sticks up his middle finger and she shoots it off. Oh yeah, I forgot about that part! Oh man, we're laughing in terms of it being a movie, okay? yeah, this is totally fictional. Christian Slater still has all his fingers, yes, but yeah, I mean, it's just really, because I think he did not expect that she would actually do it, you know, I think he thought, and she didn't, he's like, oh, you know, then she shoots and leaves and I guess diffuses the bomb or whatever she does because he tells her what button to push and it's just, Yeah, then he comes out and yeah, like a real crazy move he's, you know, he has the whole bomb strapped to him. I think he realizes at that point, hey, it's actually, me, I gotta get rid of me, I'm the one that's not, I need to destroy myself, there's a lot of hatred, and guilt, and shame, and probably just like, this is probably for us, he maybe sees that with some of the things that Veronica does, and says, That's kind of deep, isn't it? he's been trying to fix everything else, erase everything else, but, He actually, Is the one who wanted to fix himself, or have himself out of the picture. Yeah, it's his own kind of, like, he has to get out of his own way, Yeah. In that regard, but, that's really sad, obviously, but, I remember being, like, oh man, he doesn't have to, like, blow himself up. Don't do it, and, like, you're young, not me, I don't think Christian Slater in this movie is cute, but young me did I loved when Nona is just like, okay, she just puts a cigarette in her mouth and Just all right do it. I you know, like I'm not even gonna be upset that you blow yourself up And then it kind of knows that has to happen. Yeah, then so she said she's all burnt up because she's so close to when the bomb blows up and then she Goes back into the school and just yeah, takes them. Yeah, just kind of calmly. It's just like I that's that's what just happened They're all in a pep rally. They hear this bomb go off and they have no idea They were just seconds away from all being blown up. Yeah Yeah, and then Veronica goes and grabs the red scrunchie from green Heather Shannon Doherty and she's like Heather, my love, there's a new sheriff in town. Which is kind of ominous. It's kind of, you know, she goes and talks to Martha Dumbstock and, you know, says, let's say, plans her prom. So you're kind of like, is she going to yield the power? Like, is she going to say, yield the power in a good way? Or is she going to end up just turning out the same? You know, is it kind of inevitable? I feel like her move right away Going, getting that from Green Heather, and Heather's like, what? You know, then going, instantly going to find Martha. You know, the person that everyone, everyone in the school agrees, like, she's the lowest on the totem pole. So, you know, now, Veronica, who is now, like, Head Heather, I guess. You know, cause she has the scrunchie. Is showing everybody, it's okay to be kind to other people who are being bullied or might be different. That's what I think, and I think that, if there were heathers too, I would think that it would have changed a little bit. and I did see some other people kind of speculating this too, that it's not that her intention is that, but would the role, having the red stash and having the power, would that eventually kind of turn her into that anyways? I don't know. Is that kind of the whole point? Like no matter what you do, there's kind of going to be this force that rules, you know. Maybe. And that's kind of what happens to people in real life too, right? Like when they're put in power. Different situations, like they might be normal, they might not have ill intent, but Right. They may start out really wanting to do well and to do, and I think that is the intent, but it's kind of like ominous because it's like, but she has that red scrunchie. Yeah. she has that kind of, I don't know, and so you kind of don't really know. And I think that's kind of a thinking point of like, is this just a thing that, that, you know, in, in groups, is this how people are defined in high school? Is this something that's needed? for boundaries, you know, for people to find themselves, like, there has to be kind of a hierarchy, you know, is that kind of, I don't know, I guess that's kind of thinking really beyond it, but, I don't know. That kind of always was a little bit ominous to me because I was like, oh, but she's still got the red scrunchie, there's still some power to that, there's still some symbolism to it. Well, see, and I was thinking too, maybe she just took it because she's like, I don't want you to have it, you're not, you know, And who knows if she ever. Yeah, I think that's the intent. I think that absolutely is. It's just about what does it evolve into. Yeah. What does it go into, you know, I think she absolutely has good intent of like, Oh, let's, let's be friends again. Let's not like be worried about how we appear. But how is that going to turn out? I don't know. Like, yeah, what? Maybe she just gives it to Martha. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, you know, it could be, but I mean, thinking in realistic terms, this has continued throughout, like we just said, throughout generations, you know, so it's not just, Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, to me it kind of leaves a little bit of a commentary of like, oof, this is not a happy ending necessarily, but it kind of is, you know, like it's, that's what I see, I definitely can see that other point of view, but I think it's like there's, kind of in thinking of how it carries on into other generations and stuff it's a great movie. It's really, you know, again, I, I can't imagine unless you're a millennial, late millennial or Gen Xer, that this would fully kind of like, like, you would kind of be like, you kind of had to be there. I feel like it would be a little bit off in watching, but it is definitely worth it. It is a good movie. I'd recommend it. I mean, it might be, it might be, some people might think, like, if you, Yeah, if you're younger, you might be like, Oh, this is so cringy. But yeah, and it is. It totally is. Yeah, I was cringing a little bit. I was like, Oh, my gosh, I forgot. Because watching it in different lens it but I mean, but I still enjoyed it. There were parts, you know, like, again, it is kind of it's really fun. I find it fun. Rewatching movies that I watch, that I watched a million times when I was younger, that's such a disturbing movie to watch over and over, but I did watch it a lot. Because I just love it. That's actually the reason why I didn't watch it again, because I was like, oh, I just watched it like last year and I was like, I can't. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty, especially because there are some parts you're like, you know, but, yeah, I mean, it's still, it's still really good. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's a classic. It really is kind of like, a little bit like Mean Girls, but with a darker twist. Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, maybe it is kind of like the, the Gen X Mean Girls. I don't know. I think it is. That's what it reminds me of. But it's also a huge commentary on a lot of different things. But, it could definitely be, I think what that is. Maybe, yeah. But that's, I mean, you know, there's, there's so many, so many things, you know, mental health wise. Here, kind of how it ends. Let us know. What you think, if you've seen it, if you want to see it, what this, you know, picture that we've tried to, to give you, what this, has you thinking about, is there anything that you would add, anything that, You would want us to know, and also just, if you have any suggestions for future episodes, we, we have some planned out for the next couple months, but we are definitely willing to, you know, change that around or add to our schedule. Yeah, definitely. Love hearing from you guys, so, yeah, and our socials, don't forget to follow us on Instagram, at Wicked Psychotherapists, on Facebook, we are the Wicked Psychotherapists, subscribe, follow, wherever, leave us a review, 5 stars is a lot. Amazing. So, Anything else to add to that? Do you have a question today? Oh, that's right. I forgot about the question. Okay, so if you were given the chance to have the red scrunchie, right? At, your high school or maybe this fictitious Westerberg High or whatever. what changes would you make, or if any? Wow. that's kind of a deep one. Let me go back to the 90s. So, I guess, cause my high school was weird. It, like. There were definitely a divide of the cliques, but I feel like there were some, Yeah, it seemed like a lot of people did get along, but like there were a lot of people I did not, I could not stand. But I think if, I would not do, I can definitely say I would not do lunchtime surveys with my red scrunchie. I would think that would be super annoying. Yeah. I, maybe get a better parking spot in the parking lot. You know, because we just had, like, the lot that we'd park in, but it'd still be like, juniors and seniors would park, you know, sometimes the juniors would park where we, it'd be like so annoying, like when you're, when you're older, but I don't know. I don't really know if I would do anything with, my group of friends or anything like that as far as, punishing them or making them do stuff or making other people do anything. I can't think of anything except getting a better parking spot. I mean, would you do anything to bring people together? Maybe like, I mean, they're, they're yielding their power and not evil way and you could yield it for something good. maybe that connects people that could be, I mean, maybe combine the, you know, maybe more what Veronica might what I'd hope she'd do, I guess, to lead people together. But yeah, I think maybe that might be good to try to figure out. To have people sit together in the lunchroom that might be something, you know Cuz that where it's always seems like probably high school and middle school is lunch is the worst You know, like it's like where do I sit? Who do I sit with? Am I gonna sit on the stage? Am I gonna sit here? Am I gonna go outside to sit because we had an open campus so it's like where do you know? You can sit outside you can sit in the cafeteria You can sit on the stage for you know, the cool people sit on the stage or you know certain feet so it was like very so maybe like yeah and like not feeling like People are feeling so ostracized that they have to have like, oh, just the, you know, the geeks sit at one table or just, you know, like, it's okay if you sit at our table. Yeah. So maybe some sort of like lunchtime, like, hey, let's switch this up kind of thing. Yeah. Like, and kind of get to know people. that's a good, yeah. I think, you know, even having I would like to think I would think of this, but I don't think I would back in high school, so this is more like older Tanya, like 2020, like I don't think I would have, you know, like looking back with 2020 vision, but I think I, I would, I would like to kind of have like events that would allow people to get to know other people and would have them interacting and I don't know, maybe seeing that they might need someone who knows about computers, or they might need someone who, you know, kind of that type of thing, but I don't really know how that would be, but I would think that would be like a nice thing. That's just me thinking now, I don't think I would have thought of that in high school at all. Yeah, as soon as you said that, I was just thinking, oh wait, we did do that because we had keg parties, but that doesn't Yeah, the the technical knowledge, oh yeah Well keg parties like every group seemed to like forget, you know, it just kind of hang out at times but I don't know. I'm just yeah, but I mean if that would be kind of neat like I wonder why they don't do stuff like that almost like a mixer or social mixer. Yeah, some kind of high school. Yeah, like the 1950s like social social club. I think that it's not as Again, the rules aren't as delineated. So I think like a lot of like popular kids probably have a lot of technical knowledge, right? You know, it's not like the same anymore. Like, it's not like geeky to know about computers, and it's actually kind of like a standard. It's mainstream. You know, so it might, it would look different now, you know. It wasn't everybody sitting in the computer lab with a big Apple. Big square apple. The green screen and yeah. Yeah, playing organ trail. yeah. Well, actually, let's do a lighter question. Okay. So if you were to be a part of a group, what would your color be? Oh, I like that. well, my favorite color is green, so I probably would choose green. green and teal are my favorite colors green is also very earthy and meditative, in the movie, it was kind of considered like envy green with envy, But I think. Green is certainly a calm kind of, you know, meditative, like down to earth. Yeah. And I've always, I've always been drawn to it I have a lot of teal and green in my house too. What about you? what would your color be? I don't know. I mean, like I love purple, but I don't, I don't feel like I would be a purple person. I was thinking kind of green too, but like, more of, I just discovered, so my, my, this is, this is a little bit of a rant, but I just discovered that my, my birthstone amethyst, I've always associated with purple, but there's green amethyst. Yeah, yeah. And I just got a pair of earrings that are green amethyst, and they're like very, very light green, and I love light green and forest green, and I just feel like that would be I Something I would really like, I don't know, I would kind of like to be that, I don't know, just the, the feel of, of that. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, my birthstone's green too. That's weird. Yeah, I mean, mine is like traditionally purple, but it's like, I kind of really like the green one. Yeah. so I don't know, maybe purple and green. Yeah, those are nice together too. you'll be a priest at, Advent. I'm purple in green garb, yeah. I guess maybe that's my destiny, I don't know. Yeah, maybe you're gonna become a priest, a Catholic priest. I really, really doubt that, but yeah, seeing as how I don't, I still don't think they even allow female priests? I don't know, I know Episcopal does, but I don't know. Yeah, I don't even know and I definitely was never on that path. So all right. Sorry. Yeah but yeah, so let us know what what your color would be and and why And what you think about the movie, but yeah Anything else? Yeah, and this will be comments. No, I mean, I think we're gonna be releasing this in february so Hopefully You look forward to we have a lot of good shows coming up. Like that's what tanya was saying earlier We have a lot. I think you guys will be excited Yeah, lots of good things and Probably, maybe some more appearances from Winona. The Winona Wormhole. Yeah, the Wicked Winonas. Yes, we are signing off. We're the Wicked. Wicked Winona. Winona Judd's gonna contact us and be like, Am I part of that? You can be, for a fee. Laughter. yeah. But, Winona, Winona Ryder, she's free. Yeah. She can, you know, ride or die. I used to always love all her haircuts too. She was always so cute. Like every hair style she's had, she always looks good. I remember when I was younger, like probably in my early 20s, somebody, somebody told me I looked like Winona. Because I have pale skin and dark hair. Yeah, yeah. I think that was the only connection. was like, oh my gosh, that's the best person to be compared to. Yeah. And they like, I mean, the person was kind of, somebody standing by was like, that's not a compliment. I was like, it sure is. It. Yes, it is. And I will always cherish it. 100%. Yes. I will always hold, I will cling to that. Okay. But anyways, yeah, so that's, that's us, the Wicked Winona's, but don't forget, stay wicked. And keep your mind well. All right. Have a great week and we'll talk to you soon. Bye bye. Bye guys

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