Understanding the Allure of Cults: A Psychological Perspective

In this episode of Wicked Psychotherapists, hosts Tanya and Erin delve into the intriguing world of cults. 

They explore the reasons behind people's attraction to cults, both from an external viewer's perspective and from the viewpoint of those within. 

The discussion covers famous cults like those led by Charles Manson and the Heaven’s Gate group, examining the psychological factors and societal needs that drive individuals to join such groups. 

Throughout the conversation, Tanya and Erin reflect on elements like manipulation, vulnerability, societal detachment, and the roles of charismatic leaders. 

The episode seeks to understand the fine line between cults and other social groups, questioning what defines harmful group dynamics and how therapy can play a role in recovery for former members.

* This episode is a re-release*

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Transcript

0:08

You are listening to Wicked Psychotherapists, a podcast where two psychotherapists show you that taking care of and learning about mental health doesn't have to be wicked hard. Hi guys, it's Tanya. Hi, it's Erin, and welcome to Wicked Psychotherapist. So

Tanya: 0:37

today we have a fun one, an interesting one. I guess that depends on how you define fun. But, you know, we thought this would be an interesting topic to talk about, and kind of what your feelings are, what we think what kind of brings about different, maybe, attraction to cults. So we thought let's talk about the different elements of cults of things that we see from the outside, the things that people may see from the inside, and all of those different details. So today we thought we'd start out with just discussing what particular maybe cults or, you know, different documentaries now it's kind of big for us to be able to watch on Netflix, Amazon prime, things like that, documentaries and be able to know about these different cults. And it's also just kind of popular in, in everyday life, news, things like that. Is there any one in particular or any kind of aspects of a cult that will draw you towards like, say, watching a documentary about cults or things that really kind of interest you in that regard?

Erin: 1:42

Yeah, I guess when I first think of cults or anything like that, I feel like I was always exposed, not because I was in a cult, but I feel like I was always exposed to cults, because my mom was very much. I guess because the whole Charles Manson thing started, like, was in the 60s and stuff, my mom was very fascinated with Charles Manson, and so whenever it would come up, however many years it would be when he would be open for parole, we would all watch it as a family, and of course he'd always be denied. He'd always be denied parole. I can't remember if it was every four or six years, but it felt like it was often that we were watching his ridiculousness displayed on TV because. You know, back then there wasn't, you know, the internet, you had like three or four channels that you could watch it on and it was very exciting. So that was my first exposure to Coles. And I remember being very fascinated with, how would anyone follow him? He just seemed so gross. And, you know, just everything you hear about him. And then of course the, you know, hear about like the, you know, like, you know, Well, why would everyone drink all that Kool Aid and why would do that? So I just was very, I think most cults I've been very interested in cause I just never understood why people would be drawn to it. But then also I understood why they would be drawn to it because some of them, it's like, Oh, That does seem kind of safe and nice and you all like the same thing or you like to wear white robes or you like to you know, like there's just there's a lot of there's a lot of things like a lot of commonality, so I do feel like there has been a lot throughout my life that i've been like, okay I'm, very fascinated with it. Some of them i've been just like whoa, this is really weird or scary But A lot I have been really interested in, and I noticed like whenever there's a documentary on like Netflix or HBO or wherever you see it, I tend to try to watch them just because I find it, as a therapist, I find it so interesting, but also as somebody who's, as a human, I've always been very interested in cults and the idea of them and how people join them. And. How the cult leader always, you know, I'm just generalizing, but they always seem to be really gross and just Well, it's an obsession, you know, to say it off, but that's a good way to say it. I was going to say a gross guy, but there's gross women too, but they're always just like, ugh, like, why would you follow this person? Like, they just are, these are like greasy or gross or out of shape. They're just not like, they're not supermodels. They're not either way. It's not someone you're like, wow, this person's so charismatic and handsome or beautiful. It's just really strange. No,

Tanya: 4:44

for real, it is definitely kind of, it's that strange dichotomy of like, what's the pull when all I'm seeing visually. At least from someone who's not, you know, in that line of magnetism towards it. Like, what's the pull towards this greasy, you know, I don't know, possibly, you know, drugged up person who's spewing all this crap, you know? Like what, I think that is what makes it fascinating is from the outside it looks so obvious, like, this is just ridiculous, but there are such strong factors outside of that, that do attract people, that, that overcome that visual of the grossness, you know, so it must be pretty strong. That's a good point though, because I think that's why we find it so fascinating, is how could someone overcome that, you know, maybe visual, you know, or kind of maybe just the display of what this seems like. Maybe they're seeking other things, and I absolutely am. I'm with you on the, you know, kind of being interested in it as just as a person and as a therapist, that it's kind of like the human condition. What do our brains tap into? What are we attracted to? And I mean, I think we do that all day with people, right? You know, right. Okay. What's their motivation? What's something that, what's this core thought, core feeling, and cults taps into all of those themes, you know, of what were drawn to what, you know, maybe would look very strange taken out of this context, but in the context of this person's world, they find that very appealing. Yeah. The fact, the point where they'll give up their whole life, their life savings. Who they are, their family, their identity to go be a part

both: 6:18

of this.

Tanya: 6:21

I tend to, I'm not really quite sure what it is, but I think I boiled it down to when I'm interested in something, you know, like one of the documentaries, the thing that really sticks out to me is if there is a very oddly charismatic kind of character of a leader and they're just going to be absurd in some way. And it's kind of more, it's a little bit of like, Okay, how far are they going to push the boundaries in that? And I kind of watched for that like popcorn moment, you know, I'm like, what's going on? That's kind of fascinating, you know, on like a low level of human attraction to that.

Erin: 6:57

How much are they going to ask of their members or their followers? Yeah. And because once it also seems like you see the shift to especially in the documentaries, where maybe they just had like a couple people or they had an idea, but then something shifts. And the cult leaders. Thinking when they're like, oh I can get more I can do more if I do it this way or I can get a different response Yeah, it's very and then you wonder where they always like this or did something shift in them too that made them Want to or sometimes wasn't an accident that they became a cult leader. Was this always their plan?

Tanya: 7:36

Yeah. It's kind of, it's funny to trace that back and to kind of look at, you know, when some of the examples, which, you know, I think are kind of common out there, you know, there's often some form of awakening or understanding of, you know, this is kind of the way because a lot of people who join maybe feel a little lost, feel like they need some guidance and they may be gone to other common areas of, you know, like maybe school or job or, you know, maybe haven't been able to receive guidance from those. It's kind of societal, societally accepted, you know, areas of guidance. So they're looking for these little pockets of, you know, people who are, you know, maybe caught onto some form of enlightenment that they feel like they need. They're like, so I think that, you know, people tend to have that in common, join cults and they, they may be at a particular time where not only are they lost, but they're kind of, maybe vulnerable, maybe a little broken, and there's areas to fill that space, and here are these you know, either charismatic people or a person who's promising that and who's saying, all I want in return is for you to just be you. And in the grand scheme of things in society, there's not really, there's not really any space, you know, that says, Hey, I accept you for just you. Right. You know, like a lot of times it's at work. It's what you give as a worker in your family. It's your role as, you know, a family member, you know, whatever that may be, right. As a friend, it's what you can offer as a friend, but this just seems so appealing and outside maybe the bounds of society as to what, you know, can be offered. And I think for people that, Maybe have not gotten great feedback in those other areas, or maybe they don't have that available. They feel like, okay, it has not been enough, but here it could be enough in this particular cold or whatever, you know, ideas, yeah. And then it is interesting

Erin: 9:31

too, because then it's like people who may have never, you said like, you know, never felt like, you know, they show up or they're the most important thing. You know, so maybe that's what they're hearing when, I'm just thinking old school, they just get a brochure, like, hey, join this cult, you know, like, so when they're reading up on it or they get, I don't even know how, like, you know, somebody's like, hey, you know what? You look lonely or you look like you need 70 friends. Yeah. Or like you could use some love. Like I wonder how, you know, like that's also like how, the marketing, like how do you find, how do you know where to, you know, is it college campuses? Is it, you know, outside of, you know, like a bar where people are going there at, you know, 10 a. m. Like what, where do you find people, you know, you know, like it's just

Tanya: 10:24

part of the strategy, right? Is like kind of, you know, where would we find people who are looking for this? We have this to offer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if it's someone who maybe needs a family, yeah, you might go towards, I don't know, homeless shelters or yeah, maybe, you know, areas, places like, you know, college campuses and maybe look for that person that, or those people that are staying over break, right? You know, that are, they don't have anywhere to go or they don't have family here. You know, so it's kind of very psychologically, preemptively manipulative in that way, right? To kind of fit that need. But yeah, I think that's kind of part of it is, you know, like some other kind of well known cult slash maybe religions or whatever it is that they're labeled as. Sounds like. No, just kidding. You know what we're talking about. They would recruit people. Act, that was like one of the jobs in this particular, you know, organization where they would send people out to like recruit and they would say, okay, if you know, are to think about in terms of where we would get like the perfect candidate, where would you go? You would probably go outside of here, you know, outside of this place, or sometimes it just may be walking up and down and just kind of, you know, kind of trolling to kind of just see like, Who's going to, who's going to pay attention to some of these key words like connection or, you know, good energy or acceptance or, you know, those, what do you call those, like those words. It sounds very salesy, subliminal, yeah. Just something. Yeah. Like there's kind of, you know, words that people pick up on and it's the same in, you know, social media for marketing. You know, if you're, if you start talking about, I don't know, something that some amazing cleaner or whatever, you know, that you need.

12:04

Yeah,

Tanya: 12:04

I don't know why I'm thinking of that but, you know, you'll start to get ads pop up, you know, for that because you said the word cleaner or, you know, like I need to be able to do this and I'm right near my phone. So I'm sure it's going to be, yeah, all of a sudden you're going to have like all the cleaner. It's like, Oh wait, here's all the Clorox, right? And it's, yeah, that's their kind of like, they pick up on the algorithm, you know, but yeah. They're like, okay, what would want someone who want to attract someone who would want to belong, like a connection, promote loyalty, would continue to work for

Erin: 12:35

this. Well, in this day and age, too, since we are, you know, not handing out paper brochures, they are probably. A little more savvy of joining different groups on online and trying to see, you know, like maybe they're joining groups where people are lonely or looking for friends or, you know, who knows what it might look like or create Facebook groups. So people would want to, or different types of groups. So people might want to. Join and then there could be recruitment that way.

Tanya: 13:07

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'm sure it's kind of, you know, some people aren't even aware that there's, you know, I'm not trying to, you know, be scary here, but there, there's, you know, groups that might be, it might look just kind of like a regular, you know, Oh, I'm just here to like meet people, but then, you know, Maybe it starts to shift into something else. Once you're kind of into knowing people and connecting with them. And you know, that, that's a piece that I think is kind of fascinating is that it's not necessarily people who are gullible and open, or maybe not too bright that join colds, it certainly can be people that are maybe kind of missing something, maybe aren't aware they're missing something and they're being drawn in for those particular reasons, because there are You know, in, in past history, we see cults like even with Charles Manson, a lot of his, you know, some of his followers were, you know, from very, you know, middle class or upper middle class families who seemingly had Yeah. not too many issues, and he somehow, he didn't, what's fascinating to me is he didn't do any of the killing, and he still got, you know, more time than most you know, because they saw how influential he was in being kind of a, you know, leader towards these people, and I think, you know, some of these people maybe were missing something where they felt like they weren't a part of something important or they weren't a part of a movement. You know, back in that era, it was like about, you know, kind of, you know, being, are you going to stand up for, you know, this because you really believe in this? Are you for the government? Are you for like, you know, like free, you know, being free, kind of like the hippie movement kind of thing, you know, and, you know, there was, that was kind of pitted against one another. So there could have been that in the air that people were feeling like, I need to rebel against my conservative

Erin: 14:45

family

Tanya: 14:46

kind of

Erin: 14:46

thing. Yeah, or if you're just, or if he, you know, if he found people in college campuses, they might not be in neither. They might just be studying and then realize like, oh wait, am I missing this big piece of something? I didn't know I was missing it until he approached me or until I saw him sitting on the quad or wherever, whatever they did.

Tanya: 15:07

Yeah, it starts talking all philosophy with his guitar or whatever, you know. I don't know, I just picture Charles Manson doing that. Greasy

Erin: 15:14

hair.

Tanya: 15:15

Yes. I love that. Just thinking, you know, come be witchy with me, that's something he liked to say, go do something witchy, like witchy like a woman, the way, oh my gosh. I've seen old interviews with him and he is creepy, just, yeah. And then, of course, There's other conspiracies about him, government conspiracies about, you know, with MKUltra. Yes, I've heard about that, like, that he

Erin: 15:40

was actually maybe normal before he was dosed with a lot of LSD, but who knows?

Tanya: 15:46

I don't know that he was ever normal. I don't want to go that far, but maybe he wasn't as Charles Manson y as he is, you know. Yeah,

Erin: 15:52

who knows? I mean, that, yeah. But yeah. But there's never been anyone to vouch for that, to say, oh, yeah. He was like a great son, you know, that's true.

Tanya: 16:04

So maybe we don't, I don't know. Yeah. Cause yeah. Who knows? But yeah, there's a lot of different things that, uh, happened, but yeah, there are different

Erin: 16:12

reasons why people join cults too. And like, it's always another reason to think that just, I was thinking of that really fascinates me too. How a lot of people will, on certain ones, will not only stop talking to their family and everything, but they'll just uproot and move to wherever it's located. That's true, yeah, like, they'll give

Tanya: 16:34

up, they'll give up everything and, you know, and in that regard, I think, you think, okay, an 18 to 20 year old, maybe they don't have that much to give up and they're kind of looking for something. Right. But there's been people that, I mean, we've seen in some, you know, documentaries that they had children, they had families, and, you know, maybe they either brought the kids with them, or maybe they left them behind, you know, and so it's a really powerful message of, you know, we're going to be able to fulfill this that you feel is missing, or maybe that, like you said, they didn't even realize was missing until then, and it's such a deeply felt message. Connection and a point of, I need to get this kind of, I need to see this through and see what this is about and get this fulfilled even over maybe my own family in the course of my, you know, taking care of children or, you know, my possessions or my family connections, whatever it may be, I may leave that all behind because this feels so important. And I kind of wonder if there was any, you know, because sometimes there can be a fine line, I think, between what somebody considers is a cult, in quotation marks, right, versus a group of people who maybe they all live together. Maybe it's, you know, maybe perceived as a cult because there may be kind of common values that people all live by. They all decide to live in a group and there's this group dynamic that's maybe a little bit outside of, yeah, the rules of society. And sometimes I think that can be, and I am not saying at all in like the case of Charles Manson or, you know, other things like this, other kind of well known cults like the Hale Bopp comic cult or whatever, yeah, that. Those were healthy cults by any means, but I do think maybe sometimes some people can find some solace in that, find some safety, find some connection where it's not harmful, I mean,

Erin: 18:21

possibly, maybe we just don't hear about it too much. Well, there used to be a lot of talk about it. You know, again, going back to the sixties or seventies or whatever, like the communes where that used to actually be, all right, these people are a little different. They're all living on land that they bought together or whatever, but they're living, no, people are like, okay, this isn't just what they choose. And, but it wasn't considered a cult. It was just a group of people all living together. And, but now I think because there are, we are, as a society, probably more educated on what defines a cult, you know, it's like, you know, one person where everyone listens to, and may not have their best interests, might have their interests in most, you know, more, more so than anything else. And maybe the people are being harmed, maybe financially, maybe other ways. Yeah, I don't think there is a lot wrong if a group of people choose to live together, if they choose as a group, you know, if one person isn't telling them, Hey, let's move to Montana or something, you know, like, and, you know, it just live off the land, because this is what I say. Is best and they have no desire to be there, then that's a little different than if it's just a group of friends or a group of people who are like minded who want to do this.

Tanya: 19:41

Yeah, and it becomes tricky because then There's kind of some, you know, possibly there's some brainwashing involved where some people may say, oh, no, I do want to do this, but it may be leading some members of the group or maybe all members of the group towards something that's not healthy for them or something that they're not really, they didn't really sign up for in the beginning and maybe it's kind of just getting out of control or hurt. Maybe they actually become an active part of the recruiting, and they're like, Oh, hey, this is something that I believe in so much, and then they're in kind of deep, and then they're also recruiting other people, you know, and sometimes it can just be a group of people with a shared vision, you know, maybe they just want to live off the land, they don't really want too much involved with, you know, the outside of society, or maybe something they perceive as toxic, or a lot of things they perceive as not healthy, whatever it is. And everybody's just kind of, you know, doing their own thing and they can function and do well. Again, I don't think we hear too much about that, so I don't know if those actually exist. I'm sure there probably are some, you know, groups that they would just probably say, Hey, we're just kind of groups, you know, that we have like a shared goal. There's plenty of things like that out there. You know, I think the fine line becomes when it's not healthy for, you know, everyone and maybe things are kind of out of control or one person has all the control. I think there can be a lot of different factors of where it becomes a cult, right? And

Erin: 21:04

they're forcing them not to have communication with their family. You know, it's different than if you choose to step away from your family, you know, in sound mind. And, but if you're being forced to stop communication or you're not allowed to have access to your own money. Or even you can't even go grocery shopping on your own. It all has to be all right. Well, this is what we're eating. This is what we're doing. It's, you know, it's a, that's a little different than, oh yeah, we're all choosing to do this. This is just because this is for the betterment of us.

Tanya: 21:34

Yeah. Like they're all aware of the consequences because I think there can definitely be a point where it's unhealthy, but the, everybody is, you know, quote unquote choosing this, right? They want to live by this, but they're not aware of all the consequences or like how far removed they've kind of come from that. So they may say, oh no, I chose to cut off my family. Like there was that, that hillbop the cult that was like, they thought the hillbop when it returned or whatever. I don't remember. Yeah. I

Erin: 22:00

remember like that was that the one with the guy with the, like the bowl haircut. Yes. Okay. Yes.

Tanya: 22:07

They kind of all like, you know, maybe sought to be androgynous. They thought when the next tailbop came, they would be kind of taken away and things didn't work out as planned. And then they all literally, I think, drank Kool Aid with like, yeah, well, it was originally

Erin: 22:22

Like a co host cult thing because it was like and then the one called Well, because like she was it was a male because usually it's just like one cult and then like so it's like all right We're both cult leaders. I mean, I don't know how you just what you could so it's co cult they but she ended up dying like the second one ended up dying of cancer and then that's when I think the hell bought, I can't remember the name of that cult, but that's when they decided he kind of started going a dark turn. It started not to be so love and everything and started to really, okay, well, you know, then suicide and, you know, being talked about and it was just, it just really got dark and it seemed like he was very

Tanya: 23:04

unwell. Yeah, they upended their, kind of upended their whole belief system and the male had to take over and kind of say, Oh, well, you know what? This is the way we actually get there, kind of thing, by suicide, and then they all committed suicide, so it's, there's no I don't know that there's really any force involved, you know, in, in terms of, like, anybody's, like, holding a gun to your head, or, I don't know, maybe there, there are some, you know, where it's, like, you have to, kind of, you know, like, you know, abide by this, or it's life threatening, I think it's more of, like, a psychological, kind of, turning, kind of thing. Right. Like kind of a slow cooker and that, you know, like you're kind of sitting in these ideas and you're kind of marinating in them and day after day and they kind of, you know, start to make sense. And it's kind of what you've been looking for, but then ultimately it's maybe for someone else's benefit or, you know, for a benefit that, that this person didn't initially sign up for.

Erin: 23:55

Yeah. Cause with that one, there were people who left after that, after they realized, Oh, wait a minute. We're all not going to be taken by the alien ship or whatever, when they realize that was not true. A couple of people left and that because they realized that they were, it was starting to turn a little dark.

Tanya: 24:15

Yeah. And they, and there were people that were able to be interviewed in the documentary I saw and it, you know, it really was like, we really had strong beliefs and the woman and you know, but then when she died and things didn't work out as planned, it was just like a call. Yeah. It just kind of was like, oh wait, maybe this is not. what I thought it was. And some people may look at that and think that's completely silly and they would never fall for that. But it can be when you are, I think, searching for something, you know, just kind of the, I think the psychology behind this and, you know, looking at the mental health aspect. I think when you're really searching for something, you're really desperate for something that you perceive as not available in other areas of society. You think you are, you have to almost go out and discover it and find that and that other people do know it. But they may be either are trying to kind of hide it like hide this big truth or this awareness or you know It's something that you kind of yourself are a person who is maybe more enlightened towards figuring that out You know, right you've kind of felt this pull this draw towards it. And so it really kind of fulfills A need in that. Yeah. And yeah, that can be a strong force. If you're, especially if you're at particular points where you're, you know, really kind of have spaces that need to be filled, which when have we, I mean, as humans, we have a lot of those developmentally.

Erin: 25:36

While you're saying that, I was just thinking how many times have, I mean, I know I have gone. So into work or into something because I was. The rest of my life was lacking, so I might, I've had jobs where my, you know, my whole life was centered around my job and it was my identity, and I didn't have hobbies, or I didn't really have any other interests. It was just my job. And I'm not saying it was a cult, but it felt very, you know, you definitely, I felt like I lost myself in some jobs. And so I can understand how that can happen if you're so lost or if you're so, or you find something you believe in or you feel like you believe in it and how it can be really possible to just want to continue believing or find happiness or just feel like you're finding yourself.

Tanya: 26:28

Yeah, that's a really good example that I think most people can relate to, right, is you, some people can get lost in different areas of their life and a lot of times as adults, it can be work, right, you know, or because that's something we need to survive and then we really want to get good at it, we really want to, you know, make money and then it might just become your identity and that's a similar process to, you know, it could be a similar process, I guess, to, you know, if somebody is really kind of searching to make meaning, to make something the core of themselves that they feel is not understood, or that needs to be expressed in them, you know, something that they've always maybe felt was missing, or maybe they're just realizing. if somebody is promising that and then saying, and we accept you, you don't have to do anything. You don't have to prove anything. It's such an area outside of society that we don't really have a lot of spaces for. And so I could see it being very attractive, you know, to people that, that need to connect with that, to, to feel. And we do, we have like everyday things that are kind of similar processes, but they're not cold. Right. Right. Like, you know, harmful. Like, you know, we were talking about, you know, there's things that you can get really absorbed in that all have the same shared vision, same, you know, ways of living, you know, with like, you know, activities, groups, sports clubs, things like that, that we might get really into. But, uh, a big difference there is that. You know, there, there is that kind of outlining of, okay, everybody's going into this. This is for something that you want to do and that the rules are kind of out outlined there, right? Right. You're not going into it and then realizing, Oh, I got to, you know, give up my money and, you know, kind of shift my identity and I don't know, shape my head. Although, I don't know. Some people might do that for, you know, Yeah, like a super fan or something like that, you know, but that's their choice, you know, you want to do that. And again, it kind of comes down to that thing of, you know, what's, what is choice once you are kind of under that influence, you know, because you may think, Oh, I chose to do this because I really want to, Please, this person, I want to be a part of this group. But outside of that context, would you have chosen that? And like, what's the you know, it's very

Erin: 28:37

philosophical. Yeah. Or did you choose it because All of a sudden, you're feeling all this love and attention from other beings that you haven't felt from anyone in your past. Let it be your job, your family, other friendships, or you felt like it was something that you're lacking or something you'd never even had until all of a sudden you're receiving it from all these people. And it feels Great. It probably feels awesome. And by time you're like, Oh, wait a minute. I'm in this. And you probably don't even realize you're in it, but your family does or other people who once knew you do.

Tanya: 29:13

Yeah. It's, it, you know, it's funny. I just, when you were saying that, I was thinking of almost kind of like an abusive relationship. Yeah. It can almost be a similar kind of vetting process, you know, of, you know, kind of not really, you know, being love bombed and kind of being like, Oh, they're so great. But then slowly you're kind of taken away from your family. Yeah. And I think there's definitely parallels there. Yeah. Without

Erin: 29:35

a doubt. Yeah. I mean, like, and it's interesting too that you said like the abusive relationship, because a lot of times people are like, well, how, you know, like it, it is almost like, I don't want to say like all the abusers seek someone out. But it does seem like they find a certain or look for a certain type of person to be able to manipulate. You know, it's unfortunate, but there are people who are very manipulative when it comes to relationships.

Tanya: 30:00

Yeah, for sure. I mean, because if you're securely attached, if you're, you know, have a healthy attachment to like family, to, you know, you know, people that you care about, a community, you're probably going to receive feedback enough and see people that you really connect with, that you care with, if somebody is approaching you. Saying, Hey, you know this, like I can give you this or I can give you that you're more likely to be like, you know, like see that awareness or that understanding through other people that are in your lives that you trust, right? You're like, Oh, wait, that actually might not be good for me. And I mean, somebody could still override that and be like, Oh, wait, well, maybe I'm just kind of, you know, I need to. get away from this, you know, town or I, you know, I'm feeling like I maybe kind of need something really different, or I'm missing kind of this spiritual connection kind of thing. You could still definitely, you know, have a secure attachment and be kind of pulled away. I think it's probably just, it's probably more likely if you are, if you don't have those secure connections that it would be maybe, uh, an easier draw, you know, in terms of like the connection. Their efforts, that would be kind of people who they would target are people that are not securely attached and relationships and communities. But I definitely think they would be kind of more outliers, you know, and

Erin: 31:15

yeah, I was also thinking while you're talking about that, it reminded me of like a certain type to that. Might be looking so like we've talked about how people how the colds or other stuff might be looking for the people But sometimes people are also seeking and you know and caught, you know, like, oh, well, let me try This so no, this is let me try this. Let me try that Let me because they're always trying to figure out again. Who are they? What you know, what makes them happy? What makes them feel whole because it is something lacking but they're constantly seeking it too You Yeah. That happens a lot.

Tanya: 31:52

Yeah, that's true. I mean, because with so much, especially with the range of connections, quote unquote, and information that we can get on, you know, social media, on the internet in general, can reach a lot of people who say, if you just Google in the word. I don't know, connection, right? Like you say, you're feeling kind of like I'm not connecting with anyone. If, you know, a group has that type of buzzword out there, they may have literature out there to kind of attract you to a particular group. And there's also another thing is this group may not have started out as, I mean, their intentions may be really to connect people, right? And it's just maybe it might evolve into kind of a more unhealthy, uh, you know, kind of group. Yeah. Think and whatever the mission kind of slowly becomes like we were talking about this other, you know, I guess I would say cults or whatever, you know, whatever they're termed as that we saw a documentary on Netflix and how these people were attracted to, you know, a belief in belonging and feeling like this one person. Mother God was her title, how she kind of felt for humanity, she was kind of like a Jesus like figure, kind of like a, you know, kind of felt all the ales of humanity and how I think people were probably initially, you know, they were kind of lost, they wanted to feel something authentic, something connected, but how it turned out was really not that, and so how it kind of evolved and then the actual belief system or, I don't know, they were a little chaotic and disorganized.

Erin: 33:28

It was hard to try to. And it seemed like she was a seeker too, like she was always trying to figure out like, you know, who am I? What do I need? What's missing in my life? And then she found people that she appointed Father God, because they would fulfill her needs. Like, you know, it's, I probably was a little selfish at first, but then she started to, her ego started to build and other things started to happen and she realized like, Oh wait, it could be more than just me and you. It could be, you know, we can make this bigger and maybe finances or people or the power started to really make it. Into a cult or whatever it is, or if it was a movement or a religion, I mean, I couldn't really tell if it was a religion. It was so, like you said, so skewed. It was so weird. It was like all over the place. A lot of drugs.

Tanya: 34:16

I think Aaron, you know, you said that really nicely is that these people I think can, they really may have this purpose, this mission, which is very well meaning the people themselves that started. It could be sometimes it's not right, but it could be. And I think they may really feel something authentic. They may attract people who really want that. And it may be that is okay. That's okay. really good. And the point, I think, where there is concern is when that gets out of control. Maybe there's like addictions, like there was alcohol and like you said, drug addictions in there. There was, you know, there was some eating disorders. There was, you know, a lot of things that were not being noticed. Instead, they were being enabled in the name of this person being, you know, the carrier of all of humanity's emotions and feelings and in mother God. And so it really, and I, you know, when I was watching that, I really could see some of the followers. I don't know if they still are. An organization or whatever they are that they really truly believed in what Mother God like they really wanted to believe. Yeah.

Erin: 35:21

Yeah. And it's interesting too, they believed so much that they did not even see how sick she was.

Tanya: 35:27

Yeah. They were placing the spiritual plane above the physical plane and ascending to her higher state. And she knows best when really she was spiraling out of control. Yeah. Control and battling with a lot of things. Yeah

Erin: 35:41

and yeah, and everybody, that's a thing too with like group think and stuff like that. Nobody was saying like, Hey, let's get her to the hospital. Let's stop this and let's just put this on pause. We could still love her and everything, but maybe we need to just call time out for a second and just get our help.

Tanya: 36:01

Yeah, because there were periods when, especially after the last Father God or whatever came in, at least this is what it showed in the documentary, I mean, you know, that she was losing weight and she was, I mean, he had to carry her, I think, at one point because she couldn't stand. Well, her feet

Erin: 36:15

weren't working anymore, like it was just because she had like liver issues and then she was drinking some. Colloquial silver. I can't remember what it's called. Colloidal silver. Yeah, something like that and it was just like very, like, you could see her body was shutting down. It was just very, like, your feet don't get so swollen that you can't even see your toes anymore. And like, you know, like, it was just very, Yeah. And it was. Yeah. Awful.

Tanya: 36:38

It was, you know, and it was, you pointed out and I don't think I, I realized this, but she was turning like silver and yeah, because you're not supposed to ingest that much. Yeah. If even at all, really blue

Erin: 36:49

or silver or something. Yeah. It's just. Yeah.

Tanya: 36:52

And I think they kind of saw that as like, oh, this is. Proof that mother god is like the urge or you know, kind of that type of thing Maybe they saw as like a spiritual thing But really there's you know, I guess maybe in the from our side of the non cult pond, you know Like we were like, hey, like that's kind of she was poisoning.

Erin: 37:11

Yeah, your friend's getting poisoned. Why don't you help her? But yeah, they can't see it because it probably if anyone questioned it someone else would say oh no This is probably This is the way it's just very concerning sometimes, like stuff like that. It's just like, you almost want to be like, where is somebody to help? You know, like where, but they're not there because they don't see it.

Tanya: 37:31

Yeah. And I think in that regard, I think people are willing to almost push the boundaries of this is like a spiritual kind of awakening, like she is embracing all the ales of humanity, and I think they really just kind of went, over the edge with that, right? Because they were really, I think they were so drawn to that and they really started to trust in her word. And so even to the point where she's turning a different color. Yeah. And ingesting poisons that they would see it as just a spiritual awakening. And yeah, there was a lot of drugs involved with that. Yeah. Don't do drugs kids. Yeah.

38:04

Yeah.

Tanya: 38:05

It's that, that can, I mean, I understand that people may want that for like spiritual kind of stuff, but you also have to realize that it can go too far. And that definitely went way too far. But you know, I think that is, it's such a good example of I think how someone, I think there really was a genuine need for people to understand themselves and to have something bigger to believe in. Yeah. And some would say that, I'm trying to be careful here, but that, you know, that is also how you would describe if you're looking for religion, right? You know, and so, It's, there's a lot of philosophical gray area, you know, kind of things that, that we could get into. I think we're just kind of putting it out there because we're interested in the psychological. Yeah, and

Erin: 38:54

we don't want to offend, we don't want to offend everybody. But, it is, a lot of the tenants of cults, if you look at it, could be seen in other things. Yeah, for sure.

Tanya: 39:06

It's, I think, you know, I always try to think of a hypothetical if I've ever had a client come to me and what would I be concerned about? And the answer is simple yet not so simple. It's kind of if something is not healthy for that person, if it's not working for that person, and you're, maybe you're sensing that, maybe you know that directly from what they're saying, or You know, maybe it's a matter of, you know, of course, if it's someone who's a vulnerable population, like minors or something like that, you just have to report that, you know, but right, if you feel like they're in danger in some way, if they're being abused, like financially abused or whatever. Okay. You know, if there's like, they're around, you know, a lot of alcohol abuse or drug abuse, things like that. Unsafe environments, quote unquote, you know, that not quote unquote, I said that. Yeah. Unsafe environments. Unsafe

Erin: 39:56

environments.

Tanya: 39:57

Yeah. Straight. Straight up. Nope. No quote. No quote unquote. Yeah. I don't know why I said that, but yeah, things like that, you'd have to report. But for adults, it's kind of like you think, okay, they should be able to, you know, be To know what's safe, but that's the tricky thing about cults is that it's kind of suspended in this degree. So you'd have to, it would be a lot of, you know, checking that out and, you know, investigating. Well, that's also

Erin: 40:21

interesting too, because if they did the investigations, probably a lot of times the websites are what lead them in and make it sound even more appealing. Right. Or, you know, whatever information they're getting. So if they're like, I'm going to check this, I'm going to fact check this, all the facts you're getting are from that source, so it probably sounds awesome. So it's really, and it's hard too, because if you're in it or if you're seeking or whatever it is, you're not going to listen to those closest to you if they don't really want to listen to or be part of that new great thing that you just found.

Tanya: 40:59

Yeah, and. I also would wonder if they at that point would even reach out for therapy. That's probably why I have not.

Erin: 41:05

Yeah. I've never had any of

Tanya: 41:06

those.

Erin: 41:07

I have never, uh, you know, I've, yeah, I've had never had that, but I've had like, you know, different, you know, of course, different people really leaving different religion stuff. And just, we talk about that, but that's, you know, not a cult, but it's, but yeah, I've, but I have always been very fascinated. And I know there are certain therapists. That's all they work with, or they work with a lot of people who have left colds and stuff. I learned that just from watching the different documentaries, that there's different people. That's their specialty too, which is probably very interesting and also very draining as a therapist. I would

Tanya: 41:43

think so. Yeah. Because you have to, you really have to build that person up. They have to find a support system because their support system may have been that, you know, that colds. And they also have to find that. their identity after the fact. And it's a lot of work for the person and for the therapist. Yeah. Like helping them along. It's a lot. So yeah, it's, it can be really tough, but certainly. I think they would probably be people leaving a cult would be more inclined to seek out therapy as opposed to. Oh yeah. Definitely.

Erin: 42:11

Yeah. Probably not while they're currently in it. It'd probably be very difficult unless it's. They

Tanya: 42:15

wouldn't see anything as wrong. Unless it's

Erin: 42:16

therapy from the place. Like, the place that we were thinking about earlier, that will not be me, that Mike might have. That's not real therapy. Yeah, but they might offer some sort of therapy there, but yeah. They

Tanya: 42:32

term it therapy, but it's not, it's like their own brand of

Erin: 42:37

what I perceive as somewhat. It's not very healthy to have somebody talk about all their, the worst things in an untherapeutic environment. Yeah.

Tanya: 42:46

Yeah, especially if you don't know, or if you're using that as in the future for blackmail. That's, that is not helpful. Not good. Not what a therapist would do. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We're here to help. And if you're not being helped, then you're not with the right therapist. Or if you feel like, you know, that's not really the case, then maybe, you know, switch over. But that's a whole different topic. Yes. So it, you know, I think this was a good. Discussion. I think there are so many different pieces that we talked about. We could go on for hours. Yeah.

Erin: 43:21

Yeah. And I do want to say one thing. I was just thinking because I was thinking how I started off about Charles Manson, but You know, like when you think and picture Charles Manson, you know, like he just looked really deranged and looked like a person. You're like, Oh my gosh, that's a cult leader. That is the face of a cult. That's a cult leader. So when you see that, but it looks different. Well, not every possible cold or anything like that could, it's not all going to look like Charles Manson, you know, thankfully but it also, so it could just look like, you know, like normal people you're in the, you know, like you go to, you know, that you see at lunch or you do a different thing, you know, that just normal people that are out in society that aren't living in the woods.

Tanya: 44:08

Exactly. And that's kind of the, I think maybe the part, you know, in terms of people that you know, people that you can talk to online, things like that, you may not know these different things. It can get very blurred in terms of what, what is a cult or what is something that's not healthy for you that you're being pulled into a group. And it's true. I think the yeah. When we immediately think of a cult I think of, yeah, Charles Manson, that type of character, but that's because those are the ones that we know that we can define and say, Oh, look, that is a cult. That was unhealthy. Yeah. There's a lot of little spaces in between where there may be some damage being done. Maybe we just haven't really heard about it and it could

44:47

be,

Tanya: 44:48

you know, down the street or something, you know, something happening in your neighborhood or, you know, things that you may be finding out about years later. Yeah. Don't, yeah.

Erin: 44:55

Yeah. Yeah. Don't bang down the door of every house that has more than three cars at it, because it could just be people visiting. You know, like, yeah, we're not telling you to, like, stop all the colds, but.

Tanya: 45:06

Yeah, no, it's just to say that it could really, it looks different, I think, outside of. No, it does picture as like Colts, you know, and I think a lot of people are aware of that, but I don't know that people are like to the degree, you know, like, so it can be so city and really, you know, get to,

Erin: 45:23

I mean, like even different documentaries I've watched recently that were just put out this year or last year, a lot of them look like very normal people and it's very, and I think that's, yeah, well, not very normal. Some of them, I was kind of, I was kind of making a fit. Should I? Yeah, some of'em do, I guess. I guess it's subjective, but it's for other people. I mean, they look more normal. Yeah.

Tanya: 45:47

And there's just so many subtleties involved in that. And yeah, again, we could really go on and on for hours, but we probably should wrap it up around, around this point. Yeah. Because this is continu layer start going

Erin: 46:00

into, like we start going IES and

Tanya: 46:03

down rabbit holes and aliens. It's just like, I mean, that's fine, but. We can save that for another time, but let us know if you like this, if you want us to deep dive a little bit more, you know, we hope you enjoyed this discussion about the topic and let us know, you know, leave us a comment about your experiences or anybody else that you've heard of or just what you think about this in general.

Erin: 46:25

Yeah, that would be great. And yeah, and if you have, and if you have other ideas for, we always ask like future, future episodes or anything, and, or if you want us to go a little deeper, but not too deep in this, have you. For sure.

Tanya: 46:38

Yeah. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Wicked Psychotherapists. And on Facebook, we are the Wicked Psychotherapists. Don't forget to subscribe and follow us. Share with your friends. Yeah. It really helps us out share anybody and everybody. Yeah. So let's close out there. Okay. So, and don't forget, stay wicked

Erin: 47:02

and keep your mind well.

Tanya: 47:04

Yes, indeed. For sure. All right, guys. We'll see

Erin: 47:07

you next week. Okay. All right. Bye bye. Bye.

47:11

We Wish You a Merry Christmas