Discussing and Understanding: Dancing for the Devil - A Netflix Documentary

In this episode of Wicked Psychotherapists, hosts Tanya and Erin dive into the Netflix documentary 'Dancing for the Devil.' 

They explore the troubling aspects of 7M, the management group overseeing dancers featured in the documentary, and discuss the potential cult-like elements of the group under pastor Robert Shin's leadership. 

The discussion navigates through the complexities of mental health, control, and exploitation, reflecting on different viewpoints, including family dynamics and the search for identity and spirituality. 

The hosts also engage in a thought-provoking conversation about the ramifications for those involved and the possibility for family reconciliation.

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Transcript

0:08

You are listening to Wicked Psychotherapists, a podcast where two psychotherapists show you that taking care of and learning about mental health doesn't have to be wicked hard. Hi, everyone. This is Tanya. Hi, this is Erin and welcome to Wicked Psychotherapist.

Erin and tanya: 0:36

So, today we got a really interesting one to talk about. This is one that's been all over and trending everywhere, I'm sure you've heard about it. We are going to be discussing the Dancing for the Devil documentary. Which is on Netflix, and discussing 7M, which is the management group overseeing these dancers, and all these interesting things that may be going on. So, we definitely want to say and kind of insert here, and let you know that we only know from the side that's been presented, which is the main character, her family, Miranda in this they're the ones that are telling their side of it. And then there's other people who used to be in 7M, other dancers. Who are also shown and featured in this documentary. So these are the sides that we're kind of drawing opinions from. So it's not it's a little bit one sided, but still we think it's worth discussing. Right. in terms of you know, this overall documentary, I am curious what was your impression of 7M, of this family, of Miranda, her sister Melanie, and the parents and everything? What was your overall impression of this? What did you think of the documentary, a Netflix in and of itself?

Erin Gray: 1:52

Well, first of all, once again, we're doing a Netflix. Show, because it always cracks me up. We're not even sponsored by them. No, we need to figure that out, don't we? But I was really intrigued. I think I, the title, the description really was like, I was like what is this going to be? It's very interesting. But I felt really sad for the sister and the parents because you could tell that they really loved, their sister and daughter. And. It was difficult to see her in this. Situation or cult as they kept saying It's a lot of determination to try to figure out what's going on and it must be frustrating not having a family member Talk to you or call you but also It seems like they're they were not really letting her really have her own choice if this is what she really wanted to have happen if it wasn't if it isn't a cult It seems like they're not really allowing her R2? Make her own choices or to decide if she wants to separate herself from the family because people do Separate themselves from families or step away or need to put boundaries up. You know, yeah,

Tanya: 2:56

absolutely. Yeah, I agree with you I actually felt that way when I first started watching this I kind of felt like, oh, is this family just kind of really like, they just can't accept that maybe, you know, they kept saying we're so close knit and we're not like this, we're not like this, that maybe she just developed a different identity. It wants to, like, kind of live, you know, outside of that tight, close knit circle of family, but then you really see, you know, as the details come out about the Shekinah Church and, you know, 7M, the management group, that, okay, I see why they're very worried and why they're concerned about some of these things, like, she just, she seems to have really drastically changed and, you know, Had cut them off at various points and then had come to see them based on what some person was saying in 7M. So I kind of started out at first being like, oh man, like this family is just going to embarrass themselves. Like, and I'm sorry that I felt that way because I obviously was not aware of the details. But I definitely didn't think that by the end.

Erin Gray: 3:57

Yeah, same. I definitely, Had my thoughts changed once I started watching it and I was 100 percent behind the family when I realized like, oh, maybe she's not there at her free will or maybe she Doesn't realize that this isn't in her best interest to be there. So I did think it was Different it was definitely different than when I had first started or even Read the book information of what the show is going to be about.

Tanya: 4:26

You know, I'm curious though about like free will and understanding because that kind of begs the question of, you know, the family saying, well, this isn't good for her. You know, she's not getting paid from this management group. If you all don't know, if you haven't watched it or heard about it by now, there's a management group called 7M that's led by this man Robert Shin, who's He's a pastor at Shekinah Church, which has been going on for years and years. We'll go into that a little bit later. But the Shekinah church theology guess infiltrates some of the thoughts and kind of guides the dancers within seven m the prophets that they make from these very viral videos are which is a significant profit. It goes significantly more to Robert Shinn or maybe to the church. And I kind of wonder about that because, you know, Miranda the character that this centers around that the family is talking about, you know, their daughter and sister. It may be that she definitely was searching for something more in her spirituality and her dancing. It may be that to her, this feels Good that she's getting, you know, some fame for this dancing, but she feels like she's also working on like her soul and doing this, you know, and so from her point of view, I can see that, you know, but I can also see from the point of view, her family's like, she's not really getting paid for this and she's been told to not talk to us for a while and then she was told to talk to us, like, why is this person dictating her family life and everything. You know, but it's maybe a question of how she's wanting to live her life right now as well. You know, that maybe she kind of felt like she needed a little bit of separation and space from her family. And she felt like, well, this person understands my soul and the things that I need because of, you know, some of the theology he's been you know, preaching and everything. I guess in a way, we as like people not connected to Miranda personally, like not as her family members, could maybe say, well, maybe she's just living her life and this is just kind of how she wants Things to be. Right. Could there be a point, like a world where that kind of fits?

Erin Gray: 6:23

It could be. And also, before that, before they ended up in this, I was gonna say 3M, the tape company, but 5M. Before they 7M. I

Erin and tanya: 6:34

don't know what 5M is.

Erin Gray: 6:39

I don't know what any of this is but before, Miranda and her sister were doing all these videos and dancing together, so maybe she wanted, in a sense, her own separate identity from her sister, so that it's like, hey, look, I'm really doing this with this group of people, and look how valuable I am. With the pastor and I'm contributing to the church and I'm doing all this and I'm being seen And I'm not just seen as the person Who does mirror dances with you because it seemed like they were doing a lot of things like oh Let's do things in sync and let's do like like let's make a lot of videos together and be known as the two sisters who are Dancing and who look alike and so yeah, that's a great point.

Tanya: 7:25

Yeah, cuz they before Miranda Kind of joined 7M. She was, they, she was very well known with her sister. She had these, they had very cute dance videos together, like very, like good, you know, dance routines and everything. So yeah, that's a good point that maybe she wanted to kind of, you know, separate and kind of become her own person. Maybe she wanted to take her dancing to a different level. Maybe she felt like, well, my dancing, I want it to be connected with my spirituality, you know, kind of thing. And maybe this feels good to her to play devil's advocate, you know, pardon the pun, but, you know. See what you did there. Yeah. Yeah. I also can see that the family is like, what the heck, you know, like what is, you know, like we, We love this person and okay, sure. Maybe she needs her space. Maybe she needs that, but to completely you know, cut us off. And basically some of the theology that was pointed out from former 7M members was that like, You know, you need to let the family that you know, the idea of that, kind of, die so that you can rise or, you know, you can become again. So, that's kind of the thinking that's being passed down in, the theology part of 7M, which I'm confused about. Because 7M is a management company for films and media, and then there's this church involved, which formerly was called Shekinah Church, still is, and yet the members are like a part of that, and they also give their money to 7M, like a significant portion. And the former dancers were talking about, yeah, you know, he would tell us, you know, you send a thousand times today, you know, you're trying to. become like the, this, wonderful version of yourself, like the best version of yourself. And there's something that I wanted to point out, like, something that Robert Shin, the leader, had said that their former dancers who were in 7M would have reported that you know, this is a a quote that's in an article that We'll link below. it says as Miranda grew closer to Shekinah Church, her sister, Melanie experienced some of the alleged indoctrination that the members of 7M and the church said Shin had used on people. Melanie recounted, now Melanie's a sister, an experience in the series where she was at a weekly dinner with the 7M dancers, her sister, Miranda and Shin. She asked Shin if she was a sinner, she said that he said, so this is what was reported to Melanie from Miranda. She said, he said, what if I told you've sinned a thousand times today? She recalled that they all sat in a circle and held hands. Melanie said that Shin supposedly began speaking in tongues and the rest of the dancers followed. Moreover, after that experience, Melanie said she had to draw a line in the sand because Shin had personally invited her over to spend one on one time with her and she refused. So Melanie, the sister, was kind of going to some of these things and she got a creepy vibe feeling. She was like, this is not right. This feels weird. It doesn't feel authentic. I'm guessing from the way, this was written that she felt like the speaking in tongues and the sinning a thousand times just, it didn't settle with her, right? And we know that from former dancers that, that was also true and that there would be a lot of putting down people and saying like, oh, you sin this much. So there's a lot of, making people feel bad about themselves. Yeah. And at the same time, giving or contributing a lot of their money, which is significant to this church. So there's kind of guilt being used in that. Right. Right, which we can see in other places like cults or religions and things like that. So I just wanted to point that out that's kind of a well that makes sense. It's something that's very apparent

Erin Gray: 10:59

That's interesting too because remember at the beginning we were talking like what the name of the Documentary is like dancing for the devil. So then if You're in this Church or this organization and they're telling you, you know, they already know you're vulnerable and you're worried about Sinning or your soul or whatever they are talking about and they're telling you that you're sinning Did you know you've sinned a thousand times already today or you've sinned a thousand times? So you need to Attend our church give Tithins plus, well, in order to pay enough for tidings, you need to have us as your management company, you know, and it just, so they're kind of, it's all encompassing. And then on top

Tanya: 11:36

of that, we're going to tell you like, if you can see your family or not, you know, kind of thing. And like, based on the theology of this, yeah it's like intermixed. It's bizarre. Yeah. It's kind of bizarre, but at the same time, you can see some of those elements in other. religions or cults or you know community kind of I don't know groups or whatever which may be used Differently though, like it may not be like that much percentage is taken away There is more that's given back to, you know, promote community and to the people that are actually giving that. And I'm not sure that it's called tithings in this particular setting. I mean, I know for, you know, yeah Catholic Church it definitely is. Yeah, I'm sure. I

Erin Gray: 12:17

just, yeah, for lack of knowledge. Being raised Catholic, that's all I know. Yeah,

Tanya: 12:22

right, you know, I think it's like the prophets, like the contracts they have are kind of intermixed. In a way that it kind of almost sounds like tithings. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Like, that's really, yeah, that's a good point. It's, yeah, it's crazy. I mean, and you know, I think that there's also a history with this man Robert Shin who had seven M, but the Shekinah church, he's had this Shekinah church he kind of. reinvented himself many times since before this. And there's another backstory within the documentary where, you know, before he started 7M, he was working as a pastor in Chicano. And he was working primarily with like Korean Americans, like immigrants. And there's the story of these two sisters who were pretty young when they came to the States. They didn't really have Any parental figures, like their mom had to stay, I believe, in Korea. And so they were very vulnerable. They were seeking out, family. Had, all these promises were made. And This pastor, had these sisters as well as other people at the time starting up businesses like flower shops and like small kind of businesses and these people would not see really anything. And then along with that, you know, these two sisters their names are Melanie and Priscilla, so it's kind of confusing'cause there's two Melanies. another quote, Melanie, the sister in the Chicana church back in the, I believe it was the nineties. Like the, they joined in like the 1999. Melanie recalled that young women at the church interrupted a sermon once to share that they had been sexually assaulted, coerced, and manipulated by Shin through their faith. And if you recall, Melanie, in the current day, like a recent kind of story with Melanie and Miranda, the sisters, she said that he was pushing for time alone. You know, and we don't know if anything would have happened or if anything has happened with the 7M dancers And and this sister did say you know, Priscilla, I guess, or Melanie decided to flee the church at some point. Priscilla stayed behind for like 10 years, and I believe Priscilla, you know, said, I believe they both said they were sexually abused by him. So this is not a good dude. Right. You know, it's, you know, I know these are allegations, they haven't been proved, but There's a lot of stuff here. So there's that history that we learn about in the documentary, and then we realize that, you know, Robert Shinn has kind of, he didn't really make money with kind of what may be considered labor trafficking, right? You know, like taking all the proceeds from these vulnerable people that needed his help, and they didn't get really anything back. There's sexual abuse allegations lots of trauma when you watch, if you watch that with the sister Priscilla She's since left and she doesn't know what to do with herself. She has a lot of mental health issues. And then you're seeing this, you know, because he kind of started to look for other ways of how can I make money? And then now there's this, what

Erin Gray: 15:08

other vulnerable population can I now target or so knowing like, Hey let me find these young kids or young adults who are trying to get famous or want to make money or get known. And maybe I can also sell it to them that they need spirituality or they need religion or they need a management company. Yeah. And housing too. So he also was their landlord. Which is like, there's so many layers of.

Tanya: 15:34

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Just. So he was really. Wrong or unethical ness. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just kind of. Yeah. Yeah. It's just very strange. I mean, you don't, we don't know if this is like technically a cult. I mean, you know, kind of what the question, what is a cult basically, right? You know, like what, that's kind of always a question. We explored that in another series, The Psychology of Cults. Check that out. Yep. Good plug. But, you know. So we're not saying the family in this from the present day dancer Miranda, That's currently in 7M. They will, they, it seems like they feel like this is a cult. It seems like other former members of 7M feel like it had cult like elements. It was definitely referred to in the documentary.

Erin Gray: 16:19

he does reach up and fit a lot of the tenants. When you mentioned our episode that we did, Psychology of Cults, he does have a lot of the same tenants. Like he has the people following them. He's kind of gaslit them. They're not, they're separated from their family. They financially obligated. You know, there's, so they're not really. They're dependent on him for housing, probably food, you know, it's, you know, friendships, like they're in relationships with each other within the group. So it's like everything is very dependent upon him and everything he's providing for them, which That's true. Yeah, no, that's a good point because that is something we discussed in the previous episode that like reliance for resources and who has control over them. And it's very complex, right? To kind of define and say, and to pinpoint, Oh, this is definitely a cult or not. But there's certainly when these things start to come out, you start to realize there are some coercive elements of possible brainwashing, if you can go and see your family or not, like there's that one point Robert Shin kind of changes his mind and says no, go visit your family, because it was causing too much problems, or you know, he kind of felt like, you know what, it's kind of raising too many flags, so go visit your family. And the family would be like Miranda's family, when she did come to visit, they said it was very surface, like it was just like, she wasn't really there, she was kind of just Talking like on the surface. She wasn't letting them in. Yeah, and they used to be really close, right? And she would have she got married to a person a dancer who's also in and It was the same. They just like wouldn't really let them in So it was like, okay, they were allowed to visit and the family was just so grateful to have her there They wouldn't like push it, you know, so they That's kind of where they're at, you know, is with that I did see in the news that Miranda and her husband, I think it was her husband too attended the sister's wedding, Melanie, because she just recently got married you know, but it was probably maybe the same interactions, you know, kind of just like, I'm going to be here because this, it's kind of more about the image now that Robert Shinn is saying they should project, like you should be there, we don't want We don't want it to look like a cult, right, you know, so. you're instructed on what you can and can't say. So maybe they're told, yeah, you can share this, but you can't talk about your experience with me, or you can't go deeper. So that's probably why it felt very surface whole too.

Tanya: 18:48

Yeah. I think, yeah. And that's kind of a question of, you know, is that. You know, you're being, all these resources are being controlled by this person, this theology is keeping you In saying, this is what you need to do for work, this is how much money you contribute, this is how you act. I mean, those are elements of a cult. Yeah. You know, it does sound kind of, it does sound cult y when you put it together like that. Yeah, it's a little cult

Erin Gray: 19:15

y. It's a little cult y or a little abusive, a lot of gaslighting going on. Yeah, for sure.

Tanya: 19:20

Yeah. And I think this family, Miranda's family feels like we talk a lot about them because they're kind of, they're the main characters. They're very much featured in this documentary. But, and there's so many other people that are affected in this. We're not looking that over. It's just that this was the documentary. Yeah. I think they're probably the

Erin Gray: 19:37

ones that contacted everyone to have the documentary.

Tanya: 19:40

Yeah, they kind of were like the start, like the fire starters, you know, they were the leaders and speaking out against this. And but I think they genuinely just feel helpless. Like you just get the feeling they feel helpless and hurt and we've lost this person, you know, sometimes this person comes to visit us, but it's not, there's no connection there at all. And like, You know, sometimes people separate, they need their own identity, but then they come back and there's, you know, you kind of reconnect maybe on a different level, but there's not that reconnect. And so it feels like they've lost her, like they haven't really gotten her back, even though she physically will be there sometimes, right? That's, and that, that's got to be a strange feeling, almost like a, like, you know, somebody's just kind of, they're present, but they're not there in the same way, you know, and they can't really say anything because when, I think when they start to talk about. The church or 7M or whatever, any of the beliefs, you know, Miranda gets very kind of, you know, tight lipped and she'll kind of maybe like, I don't know if she gets upset or like is just kind of redirects it. Like it's just it's a closed subject.

Erin Gray: 20:43

And I think there's probably some guidelines or something where they're not allowed to talk about it or they just know not to, because they're afraid that. They won't see her at all. Even if this isn't the relationship they want with her right now, at least they're seeing her, and they know she's alive, and they're able to,

Erin and tanya: 21:00

Yeah.

21:01

Talk to her.

Tanya: 21:02

Yeah. It's the bare minimum of, yeah. I know that when this documentary came out, I know that it was in, it was reported in the news, by various news outlets that Miranda had said this was very damaging to 7M and just how it's being, how things are being portrayed. So there's a lot of focus that you can tell is likely coming from inside, maybe all the way up to Robert Shin. And he has a lot of his family members involved that focus on image and like, we're not this, you know, so there's a lot of efforts to push against a particular image. Even though that seems to be what is kind of leaning towards the truth, but he's very concerned with how it's perceived, which is interesting because he's, you know, 7M is a social media and like a media management company. So it's like the content that's being put out is very much like, this is what it is. And, no, we're not this, we're not this, so it's there is some elements of puppeteering and control behind the scenes. Which some people may say, well, with all management companies there is, but to this level, that's a little, that's a little much, I think. I'm also wondering where the family and Miranda are at now, but I know that Miranda was quoted as saying she felt like it was damaging. Mhm. There's probably other people and their family members that have as well. There were a couple of other family members who were included in this, but it was very brief you know, of dancers in 7M, but I did also read, I don't know if you saw this, that there were, or maybe this was in the documentary as well, it was touched upon, Robert Shin was kind of directing some of these dances to like classic oldies songs, like he was kind of trying to like bank on things that would go viral.

Erin Gray: 22:47

Yeah.

Tanya: 22:48

And it was, You know, at first, the, I, one of the dancers was like who had left was like, at first I was like, this is weird. But then it was kind of like I got into it and it's almost like he's trying to like, like set his own trends in that way, which is what you would probably do with, you know, TikTok videos and a social media company, right? Or a media company. For some reason that creeped me out. I don't know why it was what is he doing? Like, what is he trying to like psychologically? Bank on, and I don't know if that was just me that felt that way, but I was like there's something Is he trying to like capture his youth? I don't know. I mean, they were like oldies, like American kind of classics. I don't know if he's like trying to capture another generation. I don't know if he's like trying to bring something back. I don't know. There was just something like, These dancers don't even really know this and he wasn't like, oh, this is so cool. You know We're trying to like bring back this trend. It was just like no do this

Erin Gray: 23:44

Yeah,

Erin and tanya: 23:45

and I just kind of I don't know something about the motive behind that. Well, and also it's kind of

Erin Gray: 23:48

interesting too So it's not songs that they probably were raised with at all or may even have ever heard it's probably not in their genre or probably nothing. They're interested in so but Just how compliant they are too. It's just very interesting. And that's kind of the creep factor too. It's just like, all right. Here's some Big Bang Theory, not Big Bang Theory, Big, Big Bang Music. You know, like or something. Oh, Big Bands. Big Band. I don't know what the hell's wrong with my brain, but But just something that you're not even like, you know, I'm just picturing like Chubby Checker or something like that. Something like it's like, oh my god. I think

Erin and tanya: 24:22

it was like from that era. Yeah.

Tanya: 24:24

Yeah. Which would be so like, cringy. It really was. Yeah, very cringeworthy. And I mean, I saw one of the videos in this article and I was that is pretty cool. Like, it is a pretty cool take on it, but then when I saw the documentary and I was like, What's his angle with that? And maybe it is just because he's trying to bring it back. He's just trying to like, you know, get a trend started or whatever. Maybe it's as simple as that, but I don't know. It really just something about that just didn't settle well. Yeah, and maybe it was really

Erin Gray: 24:51

weird. Maybe he was trying to do all the different decades or something, which that could be fun. But I think also because we have the whole, we're not just looking as like, oh look, we just fell onto this, these TikTok videos, we've seen the whole documentary, so we're looking at it more of a psychological aspect, too, of what is his motive? Why is he doing this? Yeah. What is his, what is he going to gain with these people? Or what, why is he manipulating them with this? Or is he manipulating them?

Tanya: 25:20

Yeah. And the transition from, and he had businesses in between, but the transition from Shekinah Church with the Korean Americans. And the kind of, you know, different businesses and then kind of finding some other ways to make money. And then all of a sudden, still having the theology of the Shekinah Church, but in a social media group. Like it evolved to that. That to me is very curious, like psychologically, you're going for money, but you're also combining other elements that possibly are controlling and are psychologically, you know, holding.

Erin Gray: 25:57

Yeah, I was confused a little bit by. You know, because his church is a Church, it's for korean americans and the dancers are not korean american So I was just a little confused how they would fit into Like, the church community, how that worked for everybody too.

Tanya: 26:13

Well, I don't think that, that church that he originally started for Korean Americans, I don't, that, that, like, church was, like, not, Carried into this, like, 7M, that's, it's, like, this is a whole different thing. It's just, like, the 7M management group is, Cause, cause I, I understood that

Erin Gray: 26:29

they all went to the church too, that's what I was

Tanya: 26:32

I think they do, but I don't think it's like the same following now. I think that was probably, like, I think he kind of, he had like some people kind of, you know, like, walk out of there, I think, and I think he had to kind of like reinvent it, you know what I mean? So I don't know that it is Korean American anymore. As far as I know, that's what I thought they had said, but I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I misunderstood that, but that's a good question. If it is, you know, I don't know. Yeah. Because it is confusing how he Because he kind of carried it over, but he kind of, like, not that aspect of it, but carried the theology. Yeah, it sounded like he tried to pivot.

Erin Gray: 27:07

It sounded like he was trying to pivot and reinvent himself, but it really, I don't know. I don't really understand. Maybe he doesn't understand what he was trying to do, or maybe he does. Maybe this was, sounds right, this might have been his ultimate plan. Who knows? Once he came with the dancers, maybe he's like, all right, this is what I'm doing.

Tanya: 27:24

I mean, in whatever, it seems like he was always trying to have a source of money, which maybe he was trying to say, you know, was for the church and, you know, kind of that type of thing, but there definitely is some exploitation when somebody is Making all the money in viral videos or starting up businesses and they're, you know, basically paying 80, 90 percent to, you know what I mean? And they're like, they're only left with 10 percent and they're being provided stuff by the church, but like, it's kind of, it comes with some coercive control, possible sexual abuse or other abuses. Yeah. You know, that's a problem. That, that definitely is something that is worrisome. And, unfortunately, the sisters, Priscilla and Melanie the, you know, the ones that were kind of in that first iteration of Shekinah Church I don't know how else to put that. Yeah. Well, yeah, cause it is, it's

Erin Gray: 28:13

Alright, this is what it originally was. Then it either broke apart or he realized like, oh. I'm gonna get in trouble or I need to just do something different.

Tanya: 28:22

Yeah, I think there was like too much fire there, like too much smoke kind of coming up and plus I think he was not making the money and he wasn't getting like, I think he also had a drive for like fame and stuff too, to like have something out there and maybe that's to like, he says it's like to get the message out there or whatever, but I don't know that there's any like content of that in the dances. No. I don't know. Maybe that's the creepy factor is that I'm wondering is he, is that going, is that what he's trying to do with like kind of these oldies? Is he trying to get Some sort of content the theology in these videos like kind of in a psychological way. I don't know for some reason That's just what I feel like he might go for or maybe he has already done. Maybe I don't know

Erin Gray: 29:03

or I've yeah, I was just wondering too and I don't know if it was addressed. Does he? Dictate what they wear and what costumes they put on when they dance to or are they free to do whatever they want? and I wasn't sure if that also is another component of his control. I don't remember, but

Tanya: 29:22

probably, I mean, it sounds like that probably would fall in line with that, but I don't remember. I know that, I mean, he obviously picked the music for this, those videos with like the classic oldies or whatever. And he probably did have to, you know, dictate what they wore and everything and how to move and stuff like that. Or I don't know, I don't know the elements of that. I don't know if that was spoken to or if I just don't remember. Yeah, I don't know.

Erin Gray: 29:42

Just really weird.

Tanya: 29:43

But. It is. It definitely leaves you with a creepy vibe and knowing his dark experiences and dark past that he's had with the first iteration of Shekinah Church. And those are just things that are just spoken up about. I don't know if there's other things too. I mean, who knows? But that's just what we know about. And that's just from like as of right now with it coming to light. So usually things take a while. And also, I thought what was interesting is Robert Shinn, he sued some of the former 7M dancers. So in, in 2022, he filed like a lawsuit that alleged like defamation and libel. And these dancers actually countersued and they were like, well, you know, in 2023, they were like we're going to sue you for allegations of fraud, forced labor, and human trafficking.

Erin Gray: 30:32

Wow.

Erin and tanya: 30:32

And the lawsuit also includes accusing Shin of sexual battery. So, this is all still playing out, so we don't know the results of this. These, some of these suits can take a long time to settle. But, mean, it's definitely an interesting one. I personally, we were talking about this before with the title, Dancing for the Devil. I didn't really, it felt kind of, like we said, kind of like a clickbaity title. Right. It was kind of, it felt misleading. Because I don't, like to me that, that title indicates that this, These people are doing something wrong and bad against other people, but I think they're just being exploited. And it sounds Shin is kind of the person that is. Oh, maybe that's what it is. Like, like they consider him the devil, like dancing for the devil. Oh,

Erin Gray: 31:16

OK.

Erin and tanya: 31:17

Yeah. Because when you're

Erin Gray: 31:17

saying that, I was just picturing, you know, because we've talked in our other episode, like I was picturing like. stereotypical cult leader where they're like dancing in a circle and dancing around, you know, like Charles Manson family type of thing.

Tanya: 31:30

Me too. Yeah, that's exactly what, that's what I thought when I heard that. And so I was I don't like this title, but maybe it is about like, we're dancing for this person.

Erin Gray: 31:37

Because he's dictating. Hey, you're dancing. Here's the shithongs. Here's what you do. Here's how many I need you to put, you know, put out. Or, you know, so that makes sense. Sometimes we just talk things out and then we're like, we got it. And you all, and everyone listening is probably like, you dummies we figured this out.

Tanya: 31:58

We figured it out, okay. It took us a whole episode, but we got it. Whatever. But yeah, no, we were picturing something else. Like I, like, you know, something, yeah, like Charles Manson, like Colty, and they're not doing that. And like, they're not. Like going out and plotting to kill people. They're not like, like, you know, dancing. They're not like, like doing something like wild and creepy and invoking like a spirit and then sacrificing someone. Right. You know, in the circle or whatever. But I guess that was maybe just what we thought it was. Yeah, they're dancing with

Erin Gray: 32:25

their tripod in the middle of the street. But for him, because they probably have to put so much out because they need to make it go viral. So then, you know, they'll make money off of it. So then they can give him money. And so they are dancing for him and he, and the family views him as like the devil and evil. And maybe other people too that

Tanya: 32:46

have like, you know, the sisters, the Lee sisters and the, you know, all the former dancers and maybe a lot of other people too that haven't been able to speak up or maybe don't want to or haven't had the chance. But overall, it's as I talk through that, I'm like, Oh, wow. Okay. That, that, like, not only does the title now make sense, but it really is, it really does have a lot of culty elements. Yeah, I was actually going

Erin Gray: 33:11

to say I changed my answer or my original thought, and this happens so often, I was telling Tanya even before we started this episode. You're open minded. You're flexible. Yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah, I'm not closed minded, but I might be dumb and not understand what a title of a. Documentary means, but. Well then we're both dumb, because I didn't either. But I do feel too like he does check all the boxes though. It does check a lot, if not all, what you picture what a cult would be.

Tanya: 33:44

Yeah, like coercive control, like providing the resources, cutting off contact, a theology. Yeah. You know, something that's providing like a resource for money, like, being exploited. Yeah. It's a lot. It's a lot of that. So yeah, I think sometimes we just need to talk that through to be like, is this kind of what it is? And that's what we, you know, use this podcast for and for you all to listen and for you to contribute. So, So, I mean, you know, before we kind of close up here, I do just want to point out, I did quote from an article and we'll link it. Okay. But it's from Salon Online. So, Salon, I just wanted to give that credit. Okay. And it's titled, Six Horrifying Dancing for the Devil. The 7M TikTok cult discoveries in the Netflix series. But I yeah, so it's online on the salon. Okay. I'll send it to you.

Erin Gray: 34:34

Alright, I will somehow link it to something.

Erin and tanya: 34:39

I'll send you it too. Yeah I'll put it on stories or something. Yeah,

Erin Gray: 34:42

I'll. Stay tuned. I just wanted

Erin and tanya: 34:44

To give you credit, I mean, or to give them credit for that, you know. Don't give me credit. I don't

Erin Gray: 34:49

secretly work for Salon, but.

Erin and tanya: 34:53

I don't know that yeah yeah, so we just wanted to, you know, give them, because we did get some pretty good quotes from their Philadelphia series. Yeah, they did good. But and also to the documentary, of course, on Netflix, which we mentioned Netflix quite a bit. Yeah. What the heck, Netflix? Yeah. Give us some sponsoring. I know. We're throwing you a lot. But yeah, is there anything else that you want to say before we kind of close out? Anything that you want to add in there? No, but

Erin Gray: 35:21

Yeah, I don't know if that's gonna make me Sound very old or very Gen X or something, but I have never gotten a TikTok account yet So I have not I mean, I'll see the I see reels and I see stuff like that if it's on Instagram or Facebook but I So I have never seen the dancers in real life, unless they happen to be on my feed and I don't realize it's them.

Tanya: 35:43

They're linked through like articles and stuff like that. Like I've only, I don't, I actually don't have a TikTok either. I did make an account and I believe that I shut it down because I, just various things. But I do see them through like, Articles and also I yeah, I see on like Instagram. Yeah, so I might see him I might have

Erin Gray: 35:57

seen him because I do watch people who I do watch people who danced but So I may have inadvertently seen him. So No, that's a

Erin and tanya: 36:05

great point though. Like would you want that? It's actually what I was gonna ask you would you watch the 7m dancers? Like do you feel like that deserves support or does I don't know? I mean, but

Erin Gray: 36:14

I do follow some people like on Instagram who post You Dancing videos like I do like some of that stuff But I don't know. I don't know if I would knowing what it was if I think if I don't know I'd probably be I don't know. I feel torn because I you know, it's like, okay Well, they have talent but then it's like in my if I even watching it in my supporting Him and the mistreatment of them or what, you know, like just, I don't know, it just feels if I knew, I guess I would have to say no. I guess if I knew if I was watching it and I knew I was, I'd probably have to say I would not want to just because of everything else that's involved with it.

Tanya: 36:54

Okay. So I. Okay. Okay. I think I would say no as well, but I think I would be a little curious, like I've only seen like brief clips in in articles, like kind of the linked ones, but I think I would be curious to watch.

Erin Gray: 37:08

Yeah, I think I would do that too, just like, out of curiosity, but I don't, I guess I wouldn't subscribe or follow. Subscribe

Erin and tanya: 37:15

it. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, and you know, but then there's some people that say, you know, well, if they, then they maybe have to work more, you know, kind of thing. Like it's a tricky subject, but at the same time, it's for him. Yeah, it's, yeah, it just

Erin Gray: 37:27

feels gross. It feels like, yeah, I don't know. Just, I'm like, yuck. So I don't,

Tanya: 37:33

Yeah, it does feel icky.

37:35

So.

Erin and tanya: 37:36

Yeah. No, I feel that way. There should be like a disclaimer. So we feel icky about it. Yeah, there should be a

Erin Gray: 37:39

disclaimer. These are dancers from this. So, yeah.

Tanya: 37:42

But yeah, so, you know, I I know we have to close up here, but I did, you know, also have one question that I think, you know, just for people to respond to in the you know, who are listening, but also just something to wonder about, you know, is. Is a repair, you know, as clinicians, we work with families and family dynamics sometimes, right? If, or if we choose to you know, if that's our population, but you know, is repair possible with. Miranda, like at this point, you know, in her family and maybe some of these former dancers or current dancers with their families, if they've kind of gone back and forth and isolated. I know this isn't an answer we can get. We don't know them personally. Right. We don't, you know, and they're not coming to us for therapy, but do you feel like there's some form of like reconciliation at some point, maybe? Yes,

Erin Gray: 38:32

I do. I mean, because you see like for families who have separated by choice or people who maybe have left for other reasons, for like addiction or other, you know, like you hear to people who have joined cults, who have come back or they. There is repair. I mean, it probably takes a lot of work for the whole family system. And I mean, it's a big change in the whole family unit. But I do feel that, yes, there, there could be a way to repair the family and have it not just on a surface level, if it is something that she chooses or is open to or realizes that is needed to be done. Right now, she probably doesn't realize. That anything is wrong with the way that she's behaving or acting towards them. So I think it would have to like, you know, like somehow she would have to choose to leave it or have help to leave and You know and with having her spouse in it too. It probably makes it a little more difficult

Tanya: 39:30

Oh, yeah, that's true Yeah I agree. I think it is possible. I think the desire has to be there and the kind of You know depending on what level Of reconciliation would be wanted on both sides. Right. Right. You know, because the family's been hurt too, so, we don't know. Yeah. If that can change things, but I do think it's possible. I don't know that it could ever really go back to being the same. Yeah. I don't know that a lot of things can fall on certain events. Yeah.

39:54

I mean, like, I mean,

Erin and tanya: 39:54

definitely I think if there was a desire Yeah.

Erin Gray: 39:56

And it, and the family will always remember it. I mean like, when things like that happen you're always going to be fearful or hurt or, you know, like, and that's why. There is family therapy, that's why there is individual therapy to help you work through those processes but the pain still happened.

Tanya: 40:13

And as we know, everybody involved has to be motivated, has to be willing to put in the effort, has to be willing to not say, well, this is someone else's fault. Like, there has to be accountabilities, there has to be a lot of different factors in there. I think for a good reconnection. So that, that would depend if that were ever, you know, desired or wanted or something down the road, you know. We're hopeful, but we don't know. So we're just putting that out there. But yeah, so it's a good one. This is interesting. If I don't say so myself for us.

Erin Gray: 40:43

A plus for Tanya. So. If not, A plus for us. I feel like I learned stuff from, oh, from watching it and talking about it. I feel like I've as the audience has heard, I changed my mind and I, you know, C for Colt, for me.

Tanya: 40:58

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and same for me. I think it's really interesting when a documentary can do that. Again, it is just from one side, but you know, check it out. Let us know what you think. Let us know what you think about our discussion. If you want to add anything, if you know, you agree, disagree with anything, we love to hear all your thoughts. And

Erin Gray: 41:13

we always say if there's any other topics, like You know, we don't want to just stay with one thing. We don't want to just talk cults all the time, but it is interesting. So if you have any other documentaries or movies or anything like that you're like, hey, this is in the same vein,

Erin and tanya: 41:28

Just give us a, let us know. Yeah, we're always open to that. Don't forget to follow us on our socials. We also have socials. Instagram at Wicked Psychotherapists. We're not dancing. We are not dancing, no way. You don't want to see that on me. That's horrifying. On Facebook we are The Wicked Psychotherapists. Subscribe, follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. We are everywhere. And leave us a review. That helps us out a lot. Please, we will love it. Be happy. I don't know, send you a sticker or something. Or gimme a shout out. Okay. I have some stickers. Yeah. I got some stickers. I got some really cool stickers that I don't know what to do with, so you can have'em and I will give you a shout out. Okay. So that's really not that much, but Okay. Well just we'd appreciate a review. So yeah,

Erin Gray: 42:15

please, wherever you listen, like whether it's Spotify, apple, or even on. I think if you even go on our Buzzsprout website, because you can listen to our episodes there, I think you can leave a review on that. There's a lot of different places you can.

Erin and tanya: 42:28

So many points. We love to connect with you. Let us know, even if you're like, you're disagreeing, we like to hear that too. But yeah, so,

42:34

Don't forget, stay wicked. And keep your We Wish You a Merry Christmas 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 mind well.

Erin and tanya: 43:22

All right. Bye bye. Bye. Take care.