The Program: The Dark Side of the Troubled Teen Industry - Psychotherapists Take on the Netflix Documentary

In this episode of Wicked Psychotherapists, hosts Tanya and Erin discuss the Netflix documentary on the troubled teen industry and its impact on children labeled as misbehaving. 

 They explore the trauma and mental health issues these programs caused rather than resolving. 

The discussion covers personal reactions, ethical concerns, and the long-term effects on the children's lives.  

The hosts emphasize the manipulation of parents, abusive treatment by underqualified staff, and the emotional and physical trauma endured by the teens. 

The episode concludes with a call for listeners to share their thoughts and experiences.

Connect with us!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wickedpsychotherapists/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Wickedpodcasts/

Linktre.ee : https://linktr.ee/thewickedpsychotherapists

Website : https://www.wickedpsychotherapists.com

Transcript

0:08

You are listening to Wicked Psychotherapists, a podcast where two psychotherapists show you that taking care of and learning about mental health doesn't have to be wicked hard. Hi everyone, this is Tanya. Hi, this is Erin, and welcome to Wicked Psychotherapist.

tanya: 0:37

Yeah, welcome. Today we have a great episode that we're going to be talking about the Netflix special, the program, and other programs like that. We thought this would be Interesting to talk about because it certainly is becoming more and more exposed more, people are becoming more aware of these programs for as it's titled, the troubled teen industry, and how this actually affected These kids that had to go through this that were labeled misbehaving children and just looking at kind of all the trauma and mental health issues that were caused because of these programs as opposed to helping the children. So we immediately honed in on, yeah, this is something we could talk about. So hopefully if you have not watched this, go watch it. If you don't want spoiler alerts, or if you want to just hear our background. Our perspectives on it first before you do go ahead and take a listen. So, we're going to be talking about details of the actual episode and then maybe some, just our thoughts, our opinions and how that relates to mental health and just just, you know, whatever it is that kind of pops up. So, The first thing that I did want to discuss is just, after watching the program, we both watched that what was your reaction to it? What was your feeling, kind of, in, in watching this?

erin: 1:58

I had a lot of anxiety and a lot of feelings came up and I just kind of went down a really big rabbit hole wanting to learn more about this particular place and the other type of troubled teen industry where they kidnap you at night and Why they do this and how the parents are sending them to these places

tanya: 2:21

Yeah, it's a big it's a big question to ask. I mean, I think You the idea is that these parents are at the end of their ropes, they've tried everything you know, and that these kids just need something kind of different. However, we hear in this documentary that, A lot of these kids didn't really do things that I think maybe we would warrant as being like you know, the absolute extreme, the worst, like some people were just doing, I think, typical boundary pushing teenage behavior, going out, sneaking out drinking with their friends You know, maybe getting into fights at school, maybe not paying attention at school, and it may have more been the rhetoric and the thinking behind you know, that was presented and placed out there that, well, if your child is doing this or has these behaviors, then they need a program to help them out because, whoa, that's bad. And it may have been like you had said, you know, targeted. For different areas where there are very you know, maybe Christian conservative values, so that this would kind of be amplified in the fact where, you know, this is something that is very troublesome, as opposed to looking at, you know, okay, well, maybe there's some teenage boundary stuff going on, and maybe there's something else going on, but it doesn't mean that these kids are just the worst of the worst, right? You know, it really was the, in the documentary Catherine Kubler, she revisits the place where they went to Ivy Ridge and just gives her account and has other people, other kids who were there at various points, give their firsthand accounts of what happened. And it's just, it's all very consistent. It's, I mean, it absolutely, I believe what they're saying I don't think anybody really denies it, it's more just that nobody's been held responsible for it but. Yeah there's you know, kind of a, I guess the director, she was really just kind of doing very kind of seemingly mild things, I think, from what I would hear from, you know, teenage clients, like she was sneaking out and you know, with, for, to go hang out with friends, maybe drinking a little I'm not saying that's a, that's an entirely, like, great thing, right? Like, you know, as a parent, you're probably going to be concerned, but you know, maybe she wasn't doing the best in school. Yeah. But she had just one day, you know, she thought she was going to be picked up by her father. She got in trouble at this school she described as very Christian, conservative. And she ended up leaving in handcuffs and going to this program. And then she realized, oh wait, I am now in a different world. She had to learn like the system of things. There's like different levels that you have to earn. A lot of the kids were saying like at first you can't even speak to each other, you have to earn the right to speak or to look at each other, to wear your hair up, to look out the window. All these just oof things that I felt as a therapist, I just felt that, oh, no, I don't like that at all. That just is creating. Trauma don't like that. So yeah, so they're revisiting that a lot. And you know, I'm curious to, to ask your opinion on what did you were, was there anything that kind of shocked you about this? This program, you know in terms of like when Katherine the director was describing it or any of the other kids Was there something that just kind of stood out that was I mean, I'm sure there's a few things that yeah It was really hard to take.

erin: 5:35

Yeah, I think well, it was just really like listening to all of them just talk about it as a group and seeing some of the reactions especially It seemed like, I don't want to say like more people, some people got it worse than the others, but it just seemed like some of the kids, you're just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe they were there for so long. And they were, it seemed like this was the first time they were actually talking about it. And it just really was raw emotions. It was like a couple of the boys when they were talking, You could tell this might've been the first time they ever really talked about some of the abuse that they had and seeing some of the videos of the staff physically taking down the students.

both: 6:16

Yeah. Find it tough them

erin: 6:17

finding the videos of it and that was really difficult. And seeing the files and files that they found. And some of the false confessions and some of the things that were forced to say, almost so that they could justify, the staff could justify how they were treating these teens. Like, some of these kids were as young as 14, maybe even younger. And, you know, and one thing, the director, what she kept saying That it's, you know, like the 15 months when you're a teenager is a super long time. You're missing out on some pretty core experiences and You know, that's like your freshman year your sophomore year of school and or more than that Yeah, and you're you know for that age that's a lifetime for a kid. And not even like missing with your friendships, but you're missing Family experiences you're missing Your birthday holidays. It's it's a lot and People don't realize that because they're just like I was just 15 months You Yeah, as an adult, if you're like, oh yeah, I'll see you next year, or I'll just see so and so, I see this relative once a year. But that's different. You're a grown adult. And you choose to do that.

tanya: 7:28

And it's not like, you're maybe picturing it's a program that's helpful, you know, instead of like one that's causing trauma. That's, that seems, that's definitely the time's going to seem a lot more than 15 months. Yeah. Because it's changing you. And you can't visit, You can't really visit or talk to, you know, your family or, and they discourage connection between the kids because they don't want them to, you know, they didn't want them to rebel and to kind of realize this is kind of effed up, you know, this is

erin: 7:54

messed up. And also that's concerning too, that they didn't want them to have friendships. I mean, it's pretty lonely doing something like that. Also to be discouraged, to even have friends or to. You know have a peer that you feel close to so instead you're just told to like don't look at each other Don't look out the window. Have your hair tied back or wear these certain clothes. It's It probably felt very lonely for And you probably felt like discarded trash because here's your parents sending you to this place It's like what did I do so bad? They're probably you know, that's what they you hear it in the documentary. What could I have done? Or, you know, do my parents even love me or what's, you know, why did they send me to this place?

tanya: 8:35

Yeah the director, she herself was writing notes like, what, like, why do you not care about me? It was so sad to see that and to, like, all of a sudden their world is just completely turned around. They have new sets of rules. They don't have any connections inside or outside. And they're just being told it would. And reinforce the idea that they are terrible kids, and they don't really even know why, but they have to accept that in order to earn the merits, in order to move through the levels, in order to get out of there, so it's almost kind of like you have to go through this I'm gonna say maybe brainwashing type of maybe that's not the right word, but maybe like, well, the program. Yeah, it's kind of like a new set of rules and believe this about yourself to be able to transform yourself in their eyes, which is really just, they just added on a bunch of trauma to get to all these levels. And you have to betray. Your other, your, the people that you're there with, the only other people that can understand this to get to this top level, they talked about that, that this person, you know, she worked the program, she was like the poster child, she was one of the students that had been there, and she was like, I felt like I had to, you know, kind of like snitch and like confront was a big thing, you know, on other people and uphold these rules. Just to like save herself, you know, but it's just, it's so the amount of trauma that I think we can see nowadays or maybe it's just come to light is so cruel and so overwhelmingly obvious in this documentary. It is it's a very visceral feeling, I think, you know, and just going through when you're seeing them go through the rubble and they left everything behind.

erin: 10:15

Yeah. And they're. It's so crazy to me. It's very crazy and it's very strange that the, it's almost it felt too like, well we're just gonna, you know, we got told to leave or we got forced to leave, almost like they're above the law. They could just leave all this stuff. Yes. That's what it felt like. Nothing's gonna happen to us. We'll just leave. It's like, leave all this very incriminating evidence. Who cares? And also not only that, it felt like, we're just leaving this, these kids are discarded trash. Yeah. It was so symbolic of

tanya: 10:43

that. You know, and I

erin: 10:44

know probably HIPAA wasn't even, I don't know if it was it past 90? Yeah, HIPAA was there, it was past 96. Yep. So, it's like, who gives a crap about HIPAA? You know, like, it's just like, really, like, knowing, you know, it's very, it's, it just felt so. Well, everything about that place is unethical, but it just felt so unethical just having it all piled and then just seeing them going through it. It was just so, it felt really, I felt really sad for them, like watching them read it. Like that's their lives, you know.

tanya: 11:13

That's how they spent that very traumatic portion and it's just documented so callously and just thrown in this discarded, leaking, dilapidated building. Yeah. Yeah. And with filled that's filled with memories of trauma. Yeah, it's terrible. It really doesn't make any sense. And I agree with you. I got that sense to that. They were like, oh, we're above the law. We can't, you know, like if even if they find this, they can't really, they still can't hold us accountable because of, you know, all the ways we can get around this and we have so much money. We can hire all the lawyers to get around this. Like that's how little they cared about the impact. Of anything, never mind these kids, and on the rest of their lives. So yeah I think this is, as a, as therapists, I think we're like this was, I think as a human, that program was hard to watch, never mind as a therapist, where you're, Actively trying to reinforce quite the opposite a lot of the times and in the way that this program was just actively enforcing 24 seven with these kids and

erin: 12:12

not even that it probably. Was sold to the parents as this is a therapeutic boarding school and you look at the staff They just end up purposely putting this or whatever, you know whatever it is lack of better word in the middle of like this really this area that has No Jobs, there's no real career opportunities for a lot of people who live there. So they're all Hired, so they're all like yay. We're so glad that this place is here, but they don't have the training. They don't have master's degrees They don't have like Counseling certifications. They don't really have teaching Degrees, they're just you know applied and they got the job. So that's also again a really disservice for the kids and the families and everybody You Because there's no oversight.

tanya: 13:01

Yeah. And they're, they showed their education was a joke. It was very much this like computer based program. There was no actual instruction. The teachers didn't, they weren't teachers. They were like certified teachers. They were just people overseeing that you were on the computer learning. I think it was a very like Bible based kind of program. And a lot of the former students were like, yeah. And we would just go through. The same stuff over and over again. So that's that was our education. That's what we learned was like nothing and you know, it wasn't very applicable and we didn't really, you know, if we asked a question, they would just be like, just do your work, you know, kind of thing. It was just about the behavioral aspect of do exactly as we say in the program and you will succeed. And it really is just succeeding and giving trauma, you know, and doling out trauma, so that I thought was ridiculous and you bring up a good point with the the staff, right, because they did interview some of the staff and a lot of them did say, well, you know, it's, this is a small town in east, you know, Bumble F, you know, out here and, you know, it's in like upstate New York, you know, and so they're basically, it's like you work in like a factory or some, you know, maybe a convenience store or something like that. Or if you get offered this, you know, this new place comes in and is like, we'll give you this much money. You know, and all you got to do is just supervise some kids and they were even sold on different types of jobs. They were like, yeah, you just got to supervise kids, blah, blah, blah. And then when they get in there, it was something different. And some of the staff was, if not a lot of the staff, was considered what would be abusive emotionally and or physically. Mentally, but that was and I am not at all taking their, the staff side at all when I say this, but I think that's what they were kind of sold something different too, because they were told without experience in this field that like, this is what you do, this is how you're helping kids, and I think some employees maybe not, maybe some people just enjoy the power trips, I don't know, but maybe some people thought, this is how I do my job, this is helping them, I don't know. You know, because they didn't really like have that awareness, that knowledge of, you know, this is actually very, this is abusive, you know, and there was one employee that was like, yeah, I went there for a little bit. And I was like, this is not for me. And I left. Yeah. I

erin: 15:21

remember that person. And so she had some wherewithal to say, this isn't right. And the one person when they were at the diner with the one the person who they said was like really bad yeah, and She's just like eating her food that they gave her and then I guess like other people in the diner Like a lot of people must be kind of like really for this Place because they're they ended up making them stop filming and they kicked them out I don't know

tanya: 15:51

Yeah, I think there's probably some tie in there where something, maybe they got in with officials in the town, and then the town just kind of made it out like, that's not something that we talk about to everybody, and so it kind of, you know, maybe that kind of storyline got around, or like, that's a shame for our town, so we don't want that talked about. Kind of thing or it's going to be misinterpreted, you know, whatever the reason, but the former staff person who was eating at first, she didn't, I don't know if, did she come off to you, like, kind of like she didn't she didn't really seem to be taking any personal accountability in it, she was very much like, yeah, I mean, you know, you guys were kind of bad and, you know, I had, I was just doing my job, so, you know, it was very much like, You know, we had to do what we had to do, kind of thing, and she still didn't kind of seem to process that, like, you know, even though she was doing her job and told what she was supposed to do, this, you're being interviewed because there's a lot of trauma, like, for these kids, and they're saying, this was horrible, this ruined my life, And I don't think, I don't think that hit her, it didn't seem to really hit her. Get her or maybe she just didn't care. I

erin: 16:55

don't know. Yeah, I don't think I think it's both I think she probably didn't realize she didn't care. She Was just there for the free meal yeah, maybe she it's just And also I don't think I think people think it's been 10 15 20 years you should get over it not realizing that Yeah, it was 10 whatever years ago and But it's still, like we said earlier, 15 months, 16 months, 20 months, whatever, however long they were there, that's trauma. So that, that is, that's abuse that you're receiving probably on a daily basis, even if you're not having physically or not having emotional abuse, you're still taken away from your family and you don't know why and you're not able to contact them on a daily basis. You're away from your friends. You're away from, you know, your peer group. You're, you know, Not even able to probably dress how you want to dress or have your hair, you know They said the girls had to have their hair tied back or

both: 17:52

whatever. We're

erin: 17:52

not allowed to talk to people It's I mean that and then you have to when you're reintroduced into society It's, that, that's also like, oh, wait a minute, now, who do I talk to about all this crazy stuff that happened to me? And this woman, probably, they're trying to explain this to her, but she either didn't get it, or didn't care, or it's just, you know, she's like, well, that was years ago, that has no effect on me.

tanya: 18:17

Yeah, she obviously is not someone I think that under, is well versed in trauma, because it was, first off, it was never, recognized, right? If it's not even being recognized, if it's just kind of being like pushed down and like they don't even want it filmed in the diner, even in up now, you know, like where they were trying to make this documentary, it's not being, it's not even being recognized or validated. And that's the worst thing you can do with trauma. That's something that can re traumatize you and continue to re traumatize you because you feel like you're living in this world that you start to blame yourself. You start to get into this thing. This cycle and then a lot of them suffered afterwards, like they, you know, drug and alcohol issues or just issues on how do I function and you know, the director, the woman Catherine Kubler she was very much, she said when she went to school, She, like to college afterwards, she kept explaining herself, like, oh, I went to this program because I think she felt the need to explain, like, this is why I'm such a bad person. This is why, like, she, it was so internalized by her, and her roommate finally told her, you don't have to do that. You know, like, that's not something that you, you don't have to introduce, you don't have to introduce that part into your life. Like, of course, you know, process it, but.

erin: 19:26

Yeah,

tanya: 19:26

you know you don't have to explain yourself kind of thing. She

erin: 19:29

probably also felt like she needed to have a Explanation. I know she was able to get out and she didn't graduate from the program, but she probably felt like yeah Well, there's probably a lapse in How I'm learning now too because for 15 months she's getting those ridiculous homeschool esque type of learning, but not even homeschool, because they're just like here's this computer system program. Just work it, and you know, just try to figure it out. So I'm sure she was put in different levels when she went back to school, and she probably always was kind of trying to play catch up. So then it's like, okay, well, how do I justify this? Well, how do I tell my professors? How do I tell anyone when she's in college? And Yeah, she's probably really happy and lucky that she ended up with the roommate that she did in, in, when she was in college because then they're like, snap out of it. You know, like, this isn't who you are.

tanya: 20:23

Yeah, or like, that's, that doesn't have to define who you are but that's how much the trauma got to her and yeah, you're right, I think, like, having to explain all the gaps in history, it's almost like, it's almost like they felt like they were away from society, they were away from society and all the rules for a long time, because they couldn't leave this place. They said, like, they had maximum, like security measures on that if there was the doors were locked and then there were all these sensors out there and then there was nothing but like wilderness because it was right on the border of like Canada I think or something and so it was just nowhere to go and your parents or your caregivers were the ones that sent you there so you can't really you know and they don't really know what's most of them it sounded like didn't No, what was going on, at least as far as you know what they said in the documentary. I don't know for sure, but they were only communicated with by like something like the family liaison or family advocate, whatever the title was who worked at the place who was given their own set of criteria of what they could say or couldn't say to the parents. And it was, of course, a rosier picture was painted, you know, of of this place. And then the conversations the kids could, if earned and at that level, eventually talk to their parents or whoever family were monitored and were filtered with this, you know, you can or you can't talk about this kind of thing. This will make it look like you're not accepting accountability for how terrible you are. So even

erin: 21:42

when they had a weekend pass or a way to, you know, be with the family outside of the campus, they still felt like I can't really say anything because then what if my parent. goes back or questions, then I'm going to be really punished. Right. Right. Or go back, go down a level or two.

tanya: 21:59

Yeah, like either my parent has to really believe me to take me out of this, and I have to know that, or, like, more than likely, if you're at this point, you feel like, no, no one's going to believe me. Yeah. And that's the setup of an abuser and a victim. Yeah. That's, that really is, you know, somebody who it's, that's exactly the dynamic it reminds me of.

erin: 22:18

Yeah. Well, the parents were all, you know, I know we talk about like how the term is overused, but the gaslighting, I mean, the parents were completely this is a proper way to use this term. Yeah, right, right. Because the parents were completely overused. Most of them, I hope that the parents were not told the truth, because then you wonder like, what the heck is wrong with these parents if they're sending, knowingly sending their kids to these places. But also, the parents had like this liaison almost most of them had like a representative that was like, Oh, let me help you find the right place for your kid to go. Oh, here's this place in New York, or this place in Virginia, or, you know, so, I don't know. Look at this beautiful brochure. They're playing tennis or they're out in the wilderness, you know, whatever it is, you're thinking like, wow, this is beautiful, but they don't have any of those. Most of the places don't really look like that or it's just a total misrepresentation. So the, and the parents just believe it without even questioning or even saying like, let me inspect it or see where my child's going to go. They just believe like everything's going to be okay or yes this must be true.

tanya: 23:24

Yeah, I think they had, I think they had all their bases covered in kind of the outreach of it. This person who was connecting them to the facility or the facilities because as they learned. In the documentary, that wasn't the only one, there were like sister facilities in different places, there was places all over the world, some were being advertised as like resorts, and they were all very similar, they all operated in the same way, and it ends up being traced back to all these shell companies, that traces back to this like one guy, this, you know, who just was benefiting financially. Yeah on this and probably some other people along the way as well that he had to pay off or whatever You know,

erin: 24:05

it looked like his whole family at least in the documentary was all part of it I mean like the person they showed yeah, like thousands of acres and just and just knew enough to like, okay I'm gonna flee the country or whatever he did and just someone else is gonna take care of the property But just let's just keep changing the names of these schools. So Yeah Some of them are still in operation today, just under different names.

tanya: 24:30

That's what I was going to ask you, if they, I couldn't remember that. Is that what, there's still some, but they're kind of, they're probably being advertised a little differently. Like they're probably changing up the game probably, but they're still doing it.

erin: 24:40

I'm sure. I'm sure. I mean, like, cause still have it, cause I've, I got stuck in a wormhole of watching another documentary after the program that was more about like a wilderness one that I think was owned by the same company. Yeah. Okay. Or something like that, but they keep changing, they change a lot of the names but some of these things, if you type in, if you're a parent and like, my child is troubled or what do I do? Or where can I, what's a good boarding school? Some of these have like, they've probably spent so much money on advertising, they'll be one of the ones to pop up.

tanya: 25:12

Right, exactly. And that's you know, parents that are desperate or think like, Oh, I don't want my kid to go down the wrong path. If they're going to trust that, that, Oh, somebody has vetted this. Somebody's been able to look and see they, this wouldn't be this big. This wouldn't be as prominent if it weren't trusted. And that was the big mistake. I think with these places, I don't even know what to call them. These mills, these factories of trauma.

erin: 25:36

Yeah. And it's something else I was just thinking too, what they do, like they'll put like Yeah. Billboards up, but they'll also, you know, they have the person that will reach out to the family too, but they try to Have the same town or the same area so then someone from your church or someone from your office or someone who works in your town might be like Your daughter or your son have you heard about you know, you know, it's always like the word of

tanya: 26:04

mouth kind of yeah Like they know how that's probably more effective like a trusted source and a person they I mean they thought about the marketing that's a big part They probably spent a lot of time figuring out that planning because that's the big part once you get them in You don't you know, the kids don't really have any credibility and there's no real communication there. So that's the big part Yeah, especially

erin: 26:24

if they're you know You know, like, the workers probably don't know the real story. Like, the people who are telling, like, the woman in the diner and the other people they've confronted, they don't know the children's real story. The intake person might or the direct, whoever is really higher up knows like, yeah, maybe they just drank a Mike's hard lemonade, but we're going to make this seem a lot worse.

tanya: 26:45

Yeah, it's I think they're told this story of like, these kids are going to lie. They're manipulative. They are going to try and, you know, don't let them do this, don't be weak, and let them, you know, be they need discipline, they need, you know, this program, and they're gonna tell you, oh, we didn't do this, and they, there was this one story with the one, you know, former student who she, she had been, like, labeled, you know, as very sexually promiscuous, they called her some incredibly nasty names and that became her label, and she had to either accept that, or she couldn't, you know. Move through the different levels to get herself out of this. So she had to take on this false narrative

both: 27:21

To

tanya: 27:21

get herself out and that I can't even I don't even know what to say about that. That's insane to me and this point she's still understandably And I think what most people would have has issues from that stemming Yeah, like was that me was that not me because it's like I were almost brainwashed into believing you Oh yeah, this is me because you have to live it. You have to like really play that part to make it through the program because the only way out is, well, if you turn 18 or if you are able to say, like, or able to work through the different levels, which requires accountability, which requires their narrative of what they see for you as I really, I'm using quotation marks. And

erin: 28:04

it's very destructive because what happens to part of you probably starts to believe that because if it's being said, even though, you know, this isn't the true narrative, but if you're saying it all the time, like, Oh, I'm. Bad or I'm an addict or I'm this or that even if you're living it. Yeah, you're believing it. So What happens and you start believing like oh wait I really do deserve this mistreatment or I deserve this punishment that they're giving me or Yeah. How my family's, because they're telling you it. Yeah. And look, my family's not responding to me. My family's not here. They've never visited me. I mean, and that was something else really sad. It sounded like the parents never even visited.

tanya: 28:44

I don't know that they could. I don't, I actually don't remember. No, I don't think they could. They could or not. It

erin: 28:50

was just, I don't think, I mean,'cause it sounded like they would have visits, but it almost sounded like the facility would bring them to, it didn't sound like the family would go to pick them up at the place. I don't know. That part was kind of hazy to understand, but it didn't sound like they were having weekend visits or the parent, there wasn't a parent day.

tanya: 29:08

There was definitely a huge, it was very well set up for lack of connection to the outside world, to the world around you, and then to being given this narrative of you're a terrible, like, you know, person, and here's all the things that are supporting that, and then you have to take that on. To be able to even just survive mentally, emotionally, even physically, you know, to be able to get things done and it's just a perfect setup for abuse and there was other types of abuse. It wasn't just mental, emotional and physical when they would take those kids down like absurdly it because they still have the I think it was DVDs of it that they just left behind. But it was sexual abuse too. It was very much, there was do you remember that story about the, there was one of the women, she was like, yeah, I still can't, like, she still had a tough time talking about it that there was a she wouldn't name the female employee, but it was just it ruined her, she said, it absolutely ruined her so, and I, she, that was not an isolated case, it was I guess, pretty well known around that time yeah, and then, so, and

erin: 30:15

then, Who would she talk to about that? Because it's, you know, you feel like, okay, well, I'm, the person who I felt like could help me or protect me, the staff member, is hurting me. And then I obviously can't report it because I'm in, I'm not in a place where I feel safe that there's no grievance procedure. There's no, no one really there to protect these kids.

tanya: 30:36

Yeah, there's the assumption of guilt on so many more severe levels before they even come in there and the punishment and the consequences in the setup is absolutely not helpful towards any type of health, I would say. And the thing that, that really gets To me is that they're still are they were saying they still feel some of these students former students still feel like Parents don't believe them, even now, you know, like they still don't have relationships with them. Some of them maybe are just starting to repair that, but after leaving they couldn't have any form of relationship and either because they couldn't understand what happened or maybe some did, but they couldn't do anything about that to change that, you know, and so it ruined, you know, their family connections as well. It, you know, they're educational opportunities because they didn't, they said they were given these diplomas. The diplomas were not accredited.

both: 31:31

Yeah. And so

tanya: 31:32

they couldn't even, they had to go back and make up for that. And one guy was like, I just didn't have, I just fell into some bad habits. I couldn't do it. And I, it was just too much, you know,

erin: 31:42

some of them, it just breaks your heart to when some of The boys like when they were I say boys, but they're probably like 30 or something now but they when they were talking it really broke my heart because They're getting these diplomas. They feel like it's real and then when they find out it's not it's like almost It's like their fate is decided again. Yeah, that's a good way to put it, yeah.

tanya: 32:04

Yeah, it's like another punch in the stomach, you know, like, oh man, I had all these things, I thought I had something, and then that isn't even something to show for. Yeah. Like that, that I could say, oh this was something at least positive that came out of this, something at least I can work with, not even that. That's

erin: 32:21

just

tanya: 32:22

horrible. And it's, I mean, these programs are, we're just talking about this one documentary. These programs are, there's probably so many other networks of them. Such as

erin: 32:34

Paris Hilton. Yeah.

tanya: 32:36

Paris Hilton has talked about it. You know, and she said she was traumatized by that. I don't know too much about that, but I just, I did read a little bit back when. Yeah,

erin: 32:45

I haven't, I

tanya: 32:46

don't

erin: 32:46

know which one she was at. I know there's a documentary or I feel like there's a book or something. I haven't seen it or read it for hers. I mean, I did, I was telling you, I started to read this book called Stolen by, I think it's Elizabeth Gilbin. And that's really good. She's like similar like taken at night by people who are hired to bring her place and then Sent to the woods and then to another facility when I think the facility might be connected with One of these others hers was in Virginia, but there's there it sounds like there's Sounds like there's like dozens of them, you know from the documentary and it sounds like they're just A lot, and it was set up so that they would make a lot of money. I mean, these things are very they have to be very expensive for the parents. You, I heard someone on one of the documentaries saying like 50, 000 a year or something like that or. Yeah. And this is, it's probably not covered by insurance. It's just, it's, these parents are just paying it just because they're sold something or told. Like, well, your child's really bad. It's probably this or jail for them. So of course the parents like, oh, I don't want them to go to jail. I want them fixed. I want them to be changed and all my neighbors and everyone in my town are using them.

tanya: 33:57

Yeah, there was that the example of the one She was, you know, a young girl at the time. She was young, like 12 or 13, I think. Her brother had gone to the program and they saw good results with him. I don't know if it was the same place, like Ivy Ridge. I think it was a different place. But he, her brother had some, like, like small difficulties and they saw, like, what they thought were good results. I don't know if it was maybe in a different network. And so they were like, oh, we're just gonna preemptively The daughter, like, she didn't have any behavioral concerns. She was actually a really good kid, straight A student, and then she went, and, I mean, went through this, like, trauma, because now she's, like, all of a sudden, she's, like, being told that she's this terrible kid. Wow. That it's just so, it's insane to me. That's why I'm, like, half Laughing because it's just so crazy. Yeah

erin: 34:45

and at 12 like even at 14, they're still like I mean, I know when we think back when you're when you're that age You feel like you're so much older. But when you look at people who are 12 and 14, they're just little kids they're like little tiny babies and then like, you know, not baby, but you know, they're little they're children and to send your 12 year old there you're 14 or you're 16 and Good It's just, I don't know, it's just really bizarre to me that people would do that and just to just send your twelve year old because your son went there and not even think of her as an individual that maybe she doesn't have any stuff. Maybe we should just send her to individual counseling or maybe there's some other thing or maybe she wants to join a sport or maybe she wants to do art or something, you know, there's something else that they could have Thought of

tanya: 35:32

yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean and I do wonder I'm not completely positive. This is total Speculation on my part. I wonder if the tie in with maybe advertising it as some sort of like religious time Maybe they felt like oh, there's gonna be a good religious education or values that like we issue like here We really you know, like We really like how, you know, that's been taught in our church or our community. And it sounds like they, I think that the program really tapped into that, that like letting like, Oh yeah, we do this and that when clearly they didn't, you know,

both: 36:05

or if

tanya: 36:05

they did, they took it to an extreme, terrible level. So that may have also been kind of a draw into some parents to like, Oh, this is really good, you know, which just shows. I think how blinded the parents were as well. I don't think they were really well as, as far as what we could see from the documentary. I don't know. Maybe I know that the director Catherine Kubler, she did write notes home, letters home saying why am I so bad? You know, like, what did I do? How come you don't love me? And, To me, I don't know if they, again, were just told that this was, like, manipulative tactics, but to me that's, like, such a cry for help over and

erin: 36:41

over again. Yeah. And then it sounds like her sisters didn't, like, she had older sisters that were already living their lives in college and abroad and doing something else. But it sounds like they didn't really know what was truly happening until like a visit or she was discharged

tanya: 36:58

Yeah, and there's the fear instilled like almost like if you are an abuse victim to tell the truth because then that like you said might get reported back as not taking accountability and then oh Maybe you dip down three levels and you're even further away from getting out, you know, and talk

erin: 37:13

anymore you're back looking at those the floor, can't look out the window. Ugh.

tanya: 37:17

Yeah. I just it makes my stomach churn. It's so sickening. I just don't understand, I just don't understand it. But. Yeah.

erin: 37:24

Yeah. And I feel for those kids. It's just, yeah. It's really, it is. It's really heartbreaking. And yeah I watched it a couple weeks ago and it took me a few, like two or two days to even like stop feeling anxious about it. Like I said, I got into like a little wormhole of it, and then I found that book, and I found another documentary. It's just, there's so many people who have had so much trauma for it, and I'm glad that she had this documentary, because it sounds like all these kids who, kids, adults, who were in it now have the support of each other, because it sounds like they found each other from her doing the research.

tanya: 38:01

Yeah, and hopefully they can realize it's now safe for them to talk about and, you know, because it was just instilled in them that was going against everything and making you worse if you were connecting with them when they were in the program. So, yeah, so I, I really think that this is, you know, A really important talk really interesting perspective in this documentary. Take a, you know, take a look at it if you can. It's on Netflix. Let us know if you have any thoughts, opinions on it. If you yourself are, if you're comfortable sharing, have any experiences or, you know, things like that. Of course, only if you're comfortable with that. But you can always message us. You know, privately but leave us some comments, let us know any suggestions for the future. We always love that. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Wicked Psychotherapists. On Facebook, we are The Wicked Psychotherapists. And yeah, subscribe and follow wherever you listen to. Podcasts were everywhere. Yeah, I think we

erin: 39:00

yeah, I think it was a good episode. I'm

tanya: 39:02

Yeah, so yeah and write us a review. Yeah, that always helps us out a lot immensely, but let us know what you think and Yeah, let's wrap it up.

erin: 39:11

Don't forget stay wicked and keep your mind Well, and we'll talk to you guys I guess next week or somehow Yeah, we'll see you next week. Take care guys. Okay. Bye. Bye.

39:22

We Wish You a Merry Christmas