Breaking Silence: A Therapist's Journey Through Selective Mutism

Join us in a deeply personal and insightful episode as psychotherapist Tanya shares her journey with selective mutism. 

From childhood struggles to finding her voice as an adult, Tanya candidly discusses the challenges, misconceptions, and triumphs associated with this often misunderstood condition.

Discover how selective mutism affected Tanya and how she transformed her experiences into a mission to help others. 

Gain valuable insights into the complexities of selective mutism, its intersection with mental health, and the importance of early intervention and support.

Whether you're personally impacted by selective mutism or seeking to understand it better, this episode offers empathy, education, and empowerment. 

Tune in to explore a topic rarely discussed with such depth and authenticity, and find inspiration in Tanya's journey of resilience and healing.

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Transcript

0:08

You are listening to Wicked Psychotherapists, a podcast where two psychotherapists show you that taking care of and learning about mental health doesn't have to be wicked hard. Hi, everyone. This is Tanya. Hi, this is Erin, and welcome to Wicked Psychotherapist. Yeah, welcome. So today we're going to be talking about a topic that is very close to me, something that I do understand having, a diagnosis of it, but also we felt the need to talk about it because it is not very well known and there is some misinformation out there. So we thought we would maybe get down to some of those points and see if we can kind of talk to them a little bit more so that you all may be more informed on that and also take something away from this. So In terms of what we're talking about, we are discussing selective mutism, which is an anxiety based disorder that used to be actually called Selective mutism, which they changed because they realized people weren't who had this disorder were not choosing to talk, to not talk. So elective kind of sounds like you're just electing to not speak. But selective mutism is a, it's an anxiety disorder. It is on the anxiety spectrum as classified in the DSM 5 since 2013. It is something that's where. It's commonly talked about in children, but I'm going to elaborate on that and talk about if it's not treated and what it looks like in adults, because I think there is a really big lack of literature in that. But, so, selective mutism is an extreme form of social anxiety where people may have difficulty speaking in particular social settings. It's not something that is, it's almost like that person has such extreme anxiety they are in a free state and they, Do not feel like they can speak and they feel locked in and kind of frozen in that. And for various reasons that I'm sure you can imagine and we'll speak to this can cause a lot of issues and I don't, but as an adult as well. So, There, there is something that I did want to talk about in relation to selective mutism, and I think there is a lot of misinformation out there that if you are selective, if you have selected mutism, you all, you are, you're on the autism spectrum, and that's not necessarily true. They can co occur with one another. So they can, you know, one can be along with the other, but it does not necessarily mean you are on the spectrum. It also, so it's, I see that a lot, and I've actually heard that from people close in my life, that they're, if I do start to talk about my selective mutism, because I definitely, I was never formally diagnosed with selected mutism, but I have had and continue to have effects from selected mutism. I've heard people that are, you know, very intelligent, educated people, just, you know, if I talk about selected mutism, they start to talk about autism spectrum and they kind of go to that and I think people may see it as you don't have the ability to speak or you're delayed in your speech. Uh, which is not the case. the same thing. And I'm not at all saying that there is, you know, the possibility that there can be some speech delays or there can be some speech difficulties. Because you're probably not speaking very much in particular settings, but people who are, who have selective mutism can certainly be, uh, quite intelligent and have a high, you know, Ability and range and language and so I really see a lot of that and I hear comments and it personally can upset me because it just is another instance of not being understood and feeling unseen. Yeah. So have you ever had any experience with selected mutism, Erin, or any like kind of, you know, people that you know, or people that, you know, you may have worked with? Well, I don't know if I've officially, I mean, I have. I've had clients that I suspect have selective mutism, and it's interesting that it used to be termed differently, so I like that it's now termed selective mutism instead of, you know, just like people have the choice to be mute or not speak in different situations. But I, I have a lot of experience working with people in the autism spectrum, and I have heard it classified like that, but I am happy to hear that it's not always lumped together anymore, that there's getting a, like people are learning more about it. Yeah, I think the more and more information that spreads about it, I think people learn, you know, different information about it. However, I think the more that it's talked about on social media and the more information out there, there can also be more misinformation too. So, you know, I just really kind of, you know, I personally wanted to talk about this topic because I definitely had selective mutism as a child, and I continued to, because it was not treated you know, it was basically a time, you know, I grew up in the 80s and 90s, it was not really well known. And I flew under the radar because I was a straight A student, I was not causing trouble, which I did intentionally to try and hide myself because I didn't want attention, because one of the kind of catch 22s is that When you have selective mutism, you don't want attention brought to you, but at the same point, you need it. And I think a lot of the teachers back then and a lot of people that knew me just thought I was shy or who knows, maybe antisocial, whatever it was, you know, but they didn't. You know, there was no, I didn't have any interventions and similarly at home, you know, I was a brood of five kids and, you know, we didn't have financial means. Also, things just were not looked at individually in terms of mental health care. That wasn't really a priority as opposed to like, you know, having food and survival means. And again, I wasn't causing many problems at home, so it just was not, it was never treated in the way that it can be now. I think it's more recognized and it can be, if intervened at a young age, I think there's a good prospect of recovery. Right. So Tanya, I have a question because you are somebody who had this and, you know, probably still has some effects to it, you know, like from dealing with it at a young age, when, Do you feel like it was discovered or that teachers or other adults in your life started noticing that it wasn't just that you're a shy child or not wanting to talk or that there might be something else going on? I don't think anyone noticed that, again, because of the time frame, because I did get good grades, because I did what I had to do. I think I, I had to, I discovered it. Like, I was the one that was like, oh, this is what this is. And that was not until I was probably, I mean, I was researching left and right, because I just felt like something was so wrong with me, and I was so ashamed, and I just didn't, I didn't know because I was like, well, nobody's saying anything, but I can't talk. And it was just, you know, as soon as I turned 18, I went to my college's free counseling center and she didn't come out and say, Oh, you have selective mutism. But I had researched and I said, I think I have social anxiety. It's this thing. And then I started to research more and I was like, I think I had this extreme form where I was not. talking around that time and just my own research, because it was not very much out. It just wasn't really, I don't know if it just wasn't really well known, well researched but I certainly didn't know until I was an adult, that was it. Instead, I just thought, You know, well, I'm getting praised for this when I'm younger in elementary school, middle school, then by high school teachers, they start to want you to talk more and say, Oh, well, you know, we, you know, we have these group projects and, you know, people, the way you learn the best is by experience. And I would, I mean, I would just have constant anxiety to the point where. I think I developed like ulcers. I had like the precursors for ulcers because I was just constantly, like something was always wrong. I just was so uncomfortable. I couldn't speak. I was trying to make it through a time when you're trying to discover your identity and I was trying to hide and I missed a lot of markers because of that. I, you know, it wasn't, You know, because I, you know, there was any kind of developmental delays organically, you know, like making friends, getting feedback to kind of figure out your identity and who you are. it, you know, being able to experiment, you have to be comfortable to be able to experiment with things and be like, Oh, I'm, you know, a person who is really loves to organize things. So I could be like a leader and then I could, you know, be in management or something, you know, kind of those types of things. I really had to push myself to like, I mean, I was on a lot of teams and groups, but I was very quiet and I didn't get a friendship camaraderie from it. I did it because I knew I had to do it. So I did like swim team. I did like diversity club. It was like LGBTQ. I think that was all it was back then, you know, was just the LGBTQ. I don't think there was the IA plus. And I did newspaper, you know, I think, but I, it was very hard to, because people that I had gone to school with for most of my life didn't know who I was, which is so awkward because it wasn't like I went to a big school. And. I tried as much as possible to not be around people because it was so painfully obvious I couldn't talk. And then there would always be the, why are you so quiet? That was always the thing. Why are you so quiet? And first off, how do you answer that? That's like saying, why do you have brown eyes? And then they're pointing out this one thing that you realize is different than everybody else, but you can't control or you can't. Get help because it really doesn't have a name to it and there's other people around the other adults in your life are not Recognizing it or other people are not seeing that anything's wrong or able to help you at this moment, right? Yeah, exactly. And yeah, that's a good point. And it's also like when I would try to talk, like I would try to get brave enough, I would raise my hand and then three people would turn around and be like, Oh my god, she talks. Which would just have me feeling like, like an animal, you know, like, like I'm a specimen and then I just would go right back in and I would be like, I can't talk. Anymore, because they're just going to keep pointing out how weird I am. And it's just, it was, you know, at that point, if you keep going through, you know, high school I ended up making it to a college. I got scholarships, you know, I did well, but I didn't know how to be a person that age. I was socially, I was just, I had not had the opportunities. I couldn't handle it. And then I think that's when things started to deteriorate around college because I went to the, You know, like I said, a counselor and she really worked with me and I started to, it was the first time I started to see, I like took a look outside of myself and I said, Oh my God, this is what I look like. And this is what I have to work on and have to fix. This is what people are seeing. Right. And I don't know how to do this. And it was very, it was a bizarre experience. And then also realizing I had all this trauma I knew stuff was wrong, but I was like, Oh my God, that's actually a lot of stuff from childhood that I had not really processed. And the fact that no one was concerned about this in my life. You know, it was just, it was a lot to, to confront. And I think I just went into like a, Oh my God, I thought I had everything figured out. I just did really well in school and that's it. But there was this whole other aspect that I didn't know how to be. Yeah. So what was it like when a lot of, yeah. What was it like when you went to that therapist or the counseling center in college and you're telling them. Yeah. I feel like there must be, you know, there's something different that I'm not communicating or I'm having difficulty communicating and you said like they We're almost trying to diagnose you with some form of autism at first, or not really, it didn't seem like they really understood. They, this counseling center, no, this counseling center wasn't, that was like, like people I knew. That was my goal to that. They didn't diagnose me with autism. It was, it, those are just people I think that associate, you know, selective mutism. They just kind of assume like, if you don't talk, you have developmental delays, which they can co occur, but that was not the case for me. And it was just very frustrating. That's just like people in my life. This counseling center, they very much, the therapist that I had, honed in on the fact and was like, Cause I had read in, I had read a lot about social anxiety. It was like kind of a new thing. And I was like, Oh my God, I have this, but I have this to an extreme. was really good to talk about it. And for someone to say, yeah, that kind of makes sense. Like, look at where you came from, you know, with like all the trauma, like you couldn't talk to anyone. And also it sounds like nobody ever really noticed. Not only because, like, academically you were okay, behaviorally you behaved, you know, well, but also just, I just didn't really, you know, there was a lot of things that I think were overlooked in my childhood, and there's a lot of lack of resources, an extreme amount. Yeah. And so, that felt really validating and good, but it also felt, like, Life altering and heavy like oh my gosh, I have a lot to do and I'm behind like and wow I mean, I've been playing that catch up game Ever since, and I've always hidden it, you know, like I've always been like, I will show this part, but I'm not going to show this part because I'm still working on it, because there's an element of shame built in there, a constant shame built in. And it's really, it's like almost like your first instinct is to hide it, and I've had to kind of go against that and say no. You know what? I know I have to like confront this. I have to put this out there and it's been really hard. You know, I think I see all the kids nowadays this generation and it's I think there's more eyes on it. There's more. There's like Earlier, there's a recognition that there needs to be early intervention. There's a lot of support in that, at least from the public schools that I've been around, I can't speak for all of them, but I think there's more so on the whole states about this and there's, so they get in there and they do exposure therapy, you know, they do like desensitization. They do, you know, focusing on, okay, you know, the teacher will work with them and not say, oh, you don't have to talk, but we'll say, We'll do it at your pace so it's not as much pressure And I just think, Oh my gosh, if I had would have been life altering, I would not have felt like this alien these years and still probably wouldn't. And it's, you know, really effective for a lot of kids. It's really like they, you know, the way it's talked about in the literature is like, this is an easy intervention, but I do have to say, I think. It absolutely can be if it's recognized, but also you need support from your family as well. And you need to kind of have, you know, the time in that, you know, being reflected at home, as well as probably some resources to maybe get some outside help too. And so there's limitations to that, I think, even now. So, and in the literature now, you know, when I read about it, it's like, oh, this is an easy fix. And I don't. That kind of prickles me a little bit. It's not an easy fix. Right. This is a very hard thing. And it still relies on other resources that you don't know if that child has. You know, it may be very difficult for them and not to mention, you know, for people like in my generation and probably generations before me, I can't even imagine that yeah, without the treatment, I mean, and without the wrecking, the recognition of it, it's very much, it can lead to some disastrous results. You can just, you know, isolate, you can, you know, really never figure out that, oh my gosh, this, I need help with this and to work at trying to understand how to make friends and. how to talk to people and the social skills that were pretty basic to most kids growing up, you know, and that were modeled in that. And, you know, I think that's another point that I wanted to kind of talk about is the element of trauma in, in selective mutism. It's not technically in the DSM, it's not something that is linked to this, it is more like of a genetic predisposition in your environment, role modeling. But I do think that, you know, it is a possibility, it is a contributor, and I absolutely see it for, I see it genetically, and I see it modeled, and I see it, and I see it. Like trauma for myself. Well, and that's with a lot of anxiety, too. A lot of anxiety is passed on. Sometimes it's genetic. Sometimes it's learned. Sometimes it's, you know, we have a very anxious parent or we see how they act or behave in certain ways, we might model it or it might be, a lot of times, different anxiety is trauma based, too yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's something that, You know, I think it probably for our generation, I think our parents are very much do as I say, not as I do, but that's not how a child learns, you know, in modeling. So you pick up on that and you will, I mean, like, I know both of my parents were not, you know, I think there was kind of a little bit of some anti socialism, you know, but maybe I misperceived that, maybe it is shyness, maybe it is, you know, extreme anxiety, definitely with my mom, and I would say with my dad, too, in different forms, maybe just shown differently, and I mean, it was so unnerving to me when my mom would bring us around relatives we hadn't really seen in a while and she would say, go sit, you know, like, what are you doing? You know, we, my sisters and I would run in the corner or in another room and she would, you know, we would get, I could hear them talking about how, bad we were, how rude we were. And the thing is we were never socialized. Like we were never told to say hello. We were never told that was rude. Instead, we just felt stupid because we didn't know what to do. Yeah. And that was also another part of it. Like it just, you know, and my mom, who was like my primary caregiver, she didn't, she was, she didn't really model that very well either. And she like, didn't, teach it either. She didn't, you know, so it was kind of like, where were we supposed to get that from? And I'm not trying to put her down. I know there were a lot of limitations to the things that she had to do, but that was my own experience. Yeah. You know, so I really just, I kind of got on this feeling of, you know, all this misinformation. I mean, the big one was that, you know, if you are selectively mute that, you know, automatically have this, you're automatically like, you know, labeled it's, yeah, like you're labeled as having Like, Oh, you must be on the autism spectrum. And I'm not, I mean, you know, sometimes that does co occur with that. It does, but that's not necessarily always true. I didn't have any delays. I actually always was like a very top performer. Academics were very easy for me, which was. It's very frustrating to not be able to, like I knew the answers all the time, but I can't raise my hand. Yeah. I can't do this. You know, and. Yeah. And it's just so frustrating to hearing it as an adult, thinking of you as a child and not having the adults, the teachers come up to you and say, Hey Tanya, you're doing really great in school. I noticed you're not raising your hand, like maybe even talking to you privately, but it just seems like nobody was there and it's really, I feel really frustrated and sad for you, like that, that you didn't have those resources. Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, I'm still, I'm very sad for that person as well, that small person and all persons that have had to go through that amongst, you know, it really is really. It really is a very frustrating thing. And honestly, I know it's at the time, you know, teachers, I think it just wasn't really a thing. They just thought, Oh, it's something you grow out of. I heard you'll come out of your shell. Shine. You know, and I just I can see that they thought that, yeah, because they thought, well, she's performing, she's doing well, she'll be okay. And I think I'm more upset about the fact that I didn't have anyone personally in my life that was like. You know, and instead of it being, you know, like, you know, at home, it was almost kind of because of how dysfunctional my family was, it was very much mocked. I was, you know, there were names that were called that I was called because of the way I behaved. I'm not going to say specifically, but, you know, there were things that were, I think, assumed about me that, like, I wasn't intelligent, even though I was like, I'm getting better grades than you. Did, you know, and it just was really so hard. Like I just felt so unseen. And then on top of that dumped on and, you know, and I realized that's a product of, because we were all in a dysfunctional environment, you kind of just, I guess the bottom of the pile, you know, and it doesn't sound like there was a lot of encouragement of having those sibling relationships. It sounds like the, Term civil sibling rivalry was probably very rampant in your household because it was not always the healthiest environment to, to live in. So a lot of the things that you needed weren't really being fostered. So you needed somebody to recognize you, to help you, to support you, to get you out. Yeah, it absolutely wasn't. Yeah, absolutely. It definitely was not. I, you hit the nail on the head. There was not any resources. Instead, it was more, and again, this is the dysfunction of the environment. I'm not saying, you know, I see where, you know, I have four sisters and there was this undercurrent of competitiveness because when you don't have resources, you all fight for things, whether it's emotional, whether it's love, whether it's being seen as the smartest, the best, the prettiest, you know, and popular. It's still the most popular. Yeah. The, you know, who, you know, I don't know, whatever, the most, the extreme. And it's still, it's, you know, that's kind of a part of sibling rivalry. But I think when you have something where you really need help, and I'm sure. My sisters probably have stuff as well that may have been recognized, you know, that it just felt like I was being like, there were like, almost like I was being called names for these things that I was like crying inside, right? Please, somebody, I don't know if this is not me just not speaking. Yeah. Like, I just really needed, I was just hoping somebody would recognize it, but instead I had to hide it because it was mocked, you know, to be something that was kind of shameful. And I have to say, even to this day, I still see points of that. With various family members, extended and, you know, close family, where I think it's just the way we grew up, you know, that it's almost, oh, if you have that, you're weird, in a way you're weird, you know, you're strange, you're not, and it's like adding salt to a wound because it's like I had to like literally figure myself out, heal from this, about how to be a functioning, you know, Healthy person and then turn around and help other people. Yeah, I think I was gonna say that I was gonna say it's pretty incredible Tanya that for somebody who It sounds like until college or maybe even beyond really struggled with having conversations with others that your profession you chose is talking and helping other people to figure out what's happening with them and to work on their struggles internally. Well, thank you. I mean, it really, that was actually an intentional choice because I said to myself, you know, if I can make it, you know, you make those promises to yourself when you're, I mean, you know, when you're in traumatic situations and you say, if I can make it to the other side of this, I am absolutely going to, you know, be in a place where I can help other people with this. This was absolutely my inspiration. And the fact that I had a therapist, I know I've talked about this before, where she first was like, yeah, no, this makes sense that you have this. You're not ridiculous. You shouldn't be ashamed of this. This is actually something you need help with and you needed support with. And I thought, oh my God, if I could be that for someone else, Even though, you know, talking is very hard. I had to really cultivate and gain. And I still have days where it is like absolutely takes everything from me to talk everything. And, you know, I've had years and years of therapy on my own as an adult of just trying to, I mean, I got to say there was definitely like a 10 year period where after college, when I moved to Florida, I couldn't find a therapist that, you understood that, but I have one now that I've been working with for about 10 years and is amazing and really understands that. And I mean, I just think that there should be more awareness of this because not everybody got this treatment that, that it's just written about so flippantly, like, Oh, this is nothing. This is just like, almost like it's a cut on the finger. And it is interesting too, cause you always hear Especially, it seems like girls are labeled it more than boys, but that could just be because I saw it in my life, or, but it's No, you're right. You're right. It is. Statistically, it is more like diagnosed in girls now. And also, I think it's also because with girls, it's always like, oh, well, she's just really shy. She's this, she's that. So then it's probably dismissed. And then it's like, oh, well, she's just really studious. She's that, you know, she just keeps to herself. She likes books. She doesn't, you know, so instead of really saying like, well, wait a minute. What about the other peers in this person's age group? Or, you know, they don't, You know, and so, it could, I could see how it could just go from elementary school to middle to high school, it just, because then people just, then instead of seeing that it might be a diagnosable condition or something that they could help treat, now they're seeing it as part of your personality. Right. And the thing is, it does become part of your personality, and that's where it gets, that's what I'm saying is, you know, that's exactly it, like it, then. Right. It then gets intertwined and you have to, you know, if you go make it to adulthood, you then have to disentangle that and then discover who you are and realize that maybe a part of it always will be a little bit a part of you, even though it's. Kind of, it's hard to admit that, you know, but it is. And it's something I think that I've had to accept that it's not weird. It's not something, you know, maybe I come off as awkward. You know, in conversations, and I just have to accept that, you know, hey, I can at least talk, this is something that I can get to this point, and I just think it's really important to get this early intervention, and to recognize that, and, to be able to offer those support, at least at school, because you know, the child may not have it at home and may be coming, you know, it may be an environment where it's being supported, which was where I came from. It was definitely very much a benefit that I was just quiet and stayed out of the way of all the things that were happening. So, you know, I really, I think, just wanted to point out some of those things that I've heard personally from people in my life. And I don't think they, I don't think people mean this in a malicious spirit. It really is just very much a misinformation that you can have selective mutism. It is not, it doesn't mean you're on the, it can co occur. And I'm just saying this as a matter of just a fact. Yeah. And personal experience too. That's right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that just because I feel like. If you have this, you've already felt so unseen. Really just validating your experience is so important with, you know, correct information and knowing the person and knowing what's going on. Right. It can also co occur with like OCD and panic disorder, other anxiety disorders, depression. In fact, it commonly does, which I also, I have, anxiety and depression, PTSD, and those are all, you know, kind of, I think, genetic and trauma linked from as a child. And you can have developmental delays and language problems. Personally, I think I could have benefited from speech therapy as a child, but I wasn't an identified person because I never spoke. So they didn't really know. So how would they have known? Yeah. Yeah. But again, actually. Yeah, I was going to say, hopefully, kids nowadays, like, they are being assessed. You know, again, it is really unfortunate that you weren't being seen or you weren't being assessed for that because maybe they would have caught it or seen something. I'm not sure if they did do something or if it's just the teacher makes the referral. I actually don't know how it was done and I still am not, aware of it right now. So teachers, you know, let me know. I'm still not sure. Yeah, I, and I am by no means blaming, but I think I had excellent, I had great teachers. I really just, I just don't think it was a thing that was recognized. And again, I flew under the radar, but yeah I also had really bucked teeth and I had kind of, you know, it's, it was always hard for me to enunciate. I had braces for like five years, but that was later on in my teen years. And I had a. a tooth discoloration on my front teeth, so I would try to hide that. So there was a lot of things that would impact my speech. Yeah. And it was really hard. And since I didn't speak, I would speak really low and it took me a long time to just feel like, to even develop like literally a voice that I hear. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it sounds very much like, you know, you know, it's probably a lot of self esteem stuff too, that you might've felt like you have a voice at first, but then. You know, with the select mutism, you probably started to lose the, lose your voice or it became more difficult. Yeah. I just like, I didn't, I think I didn't use my voice very often. I just didn't, you know, because a lot of times they'll say, Oh, you'll use it when you're feeling safe. And I didn't have a lot of safe places, you know, that I could feel safe. I think probably going to my friend Catherine's house. That was the only person and I'm like very shy around the adults because I just thought, oh, I can't talk around adults. I would mainly just be to my friend, Catherine, who is a good friend of mine, you know, who always took me in and understood me kind of thing. But yeah, it, you know, I think I, you know, and now I really just want to point out, you know, how I got. you know, how I got here, it was not, I don't recommend how I got here. I, I really hope other people have support or have means of intervention before then, but since it was just not out there and it certainly was not out there for adults about treatment. You know, for this, I still think it's lacking in treatment for adults because whenever you look it up, selective mutism, we'll talk about it as a child, you know, like a child who has selective mutism because everybody grows out of it and gets treatment. But that's, that is not the case, not for people in my generation and probably before. And then maybe some really overlooked kids now. Yeah. And it's funny because you mentioned social anxiety and that seems to be more almost socially acceptable for adults. To say I don't want to public speak or I don't want to do that or I'm really nervous about this interview Or I don't want to go meet new friends or I don't want to go do this or that Because I have a little bit of anxiety and possibly so social anxiety where That maybe they have a little bit or had a little bit of, you know, maybe their anxiety showed up in other ways when they're younger and they just never realized it. Yeah. Yeah. And it could be, or it could be something they developed over time. You know, it's, I do know that a lot of people I see as clients, just as a therapist, they do often indicate they have social anxiety and I'll hear that expressed as, I just feel kind of awkward being around people, you know? And I think that. generationally in the younger generation, maybe the, you know, technology, social media age of not, you know, having like person to person contact that may be a contributing factor, or there may be just some of that lingering. Maybe it didn't get caught, you know, in that. Yeah. I mean, I definitely do like to dive into that. Yeah. I mean, especially you're probably the best therapist for seeing somebody who has possible. You know, selective mutism or social anxiety because, you know, not only are you trained in it, but also you probably, your empathy is probably so high and you probably see, you know, you're probably able to recognize it so, so well in your clients. I feel like I can spot someone who has selective mutism a mile away. Like just in my everyday life there was actually a family member on my husband's side that I knew as soon as I. Met her, and I just knew, I was like, she is I recognize this. I know what this is, you know, and she actually was, I believe, diagnosed kind of in like her teenage years. And I talked to her mom about that and about my experience because I said, yeah, I do see that, you know, but. Yeah, it is something. It's almost like if you have it, like you just, it's, you can see it a mile away, you know, like how people are, there's a lot of avoidance patterns, you know, you try to avoid things. I still to this day have to socially, there are things that, you know, I've gotten a lot better because I've just, I just literally had to force myself to do it. And kind of that exposure therapy, doing it yourself as an adult. Yeah. It's hard to do like, you know, like if you unless you know, if you have it as a kid, you know, and you can get that support, that's great. It's still very hard. But as an adult, you feel awkward and you feel like, oh my gosh, and there's a lot of shame. Yeah. And so I, yeah, I frequently will, you know, kind of go into shame spirals, not so much anymore. But I would at certain times and be like, I can't do this, you know, and then it would cause like a lot of depression and it's debilitating. It is. It's debilitating. Yeah. It's probably exhausting too. It's probably very tiring. You know, physically. Yeah, it is. It absolutely is. I tell my husband this because I don't, you know, I'm so I think when I've been managing it, I've been facing it like over the past decade, I've been sleeping a lot more. And I said, I really think it's because of that. You know, like not like, I'm not talking to you. Like I'm sleeping like during the day for like 14 hours. I mean, I just, I feel like I need to have like seven, eight hours as opposed to like, you know, I can't run on like, like I cannot function on it because I need that sleep. But yeah, it is, it's very much something that I feel like is I'm speaking to the things that I've read. in, you know, articles, I'm speaking to things that I've heard in my own personal life, clients that I've worked with. And I just really want to put it out there that it is absolutely, you know, I think something that needs more discussion. However, I recognize that is part of the problem, right? You know, if you're selectively mute and you have difficulty You're kind of talking and then, you know, but the good thing about social media, and I loved this when the advent of social media came along. I said, Oh my God, like somehow writing and putting a post and expressing them that way. Yeah. Was so much like, I was like, I don't feel that, like, I don't freeze up in that. I can communicate with that. I'm not talking like I'm a keyboard warrior and I'm putting like all this crap I'm saying like I could actually feel and I wonder if other people experience that as well. Yeah, you have time to reread it or to really wait for your reply. People aren't wait, you know, just even probably the same with text or email. That was probably really nice for you to feel like, okay, well, there's not, I know some people are like, ah, they have to reply right away, but honestly, people, we don't, you don't have to reply instantly to a text or an email. Come on, but you get the chance to just sit and think of your thoughts of what, how you want to reply or if you want to reply. And that's, that is probably a lot nicer and feels probably safer than having to have a one on one face to face conversation. Yeah, it definitely is. It's not a, it's not something that takes away at all. Like, you still have to do the face to face. You still definitely have that. Yeah. You know, but it definitely made a lot of things, like, because it, for me, physically, and I'm not saying this is for everyone, but physically, The act of speaking was absolutely draining and I can't explain it. It was painful. The act of opening my mouth and saying words was so hard. It was almost like I had all, and I had all these thoughts and these ideas, and there was just a complete to like, get it out there. And so being able to just go, Oh, I can just access all this stuff here and do that's great. I can do that was wonderful. And yeah. I think a lot of kids now they probably will have access to, you know, there's stuff that I'm like, oh man, that would have been amazing. I call a friend, you know, online and then maybe felt a little more comfortable meeting them in person and, you know, or just something, I don't know, express something. It just feels like, you know, You know, there's a lot of things that can help with that, but there's also a danger, and you don't want to just interrupt in that way. Yeah, you don't know who you're, you don't know who you're talking to, or, But, I do see the benefit for people who, Might have difficulty talking to people in person or making friends in person for that. And, but there is the loss of almost like, like you've mentioned before, like the exposure of doing the hard things of having those conversations and. Right, right, and the, just the face to face nature, the, you know, reading the facial language and the body language and having those social cues and everything like that, you have to, you still have to be aware of those, and I actually never, that was never an issue for me, I could read some, I actually could read someone Too well, I felt it. Well, yeah, well, you've mentioned that you have family, uh, you know, you have history of trauma. So yeah, of course you're able to read the room. You're probably able to read every single person's emotions in every room that you're in. You probably still do. Yeah, it's very, it's a, it's something I have to pull back on. And that's also another thing about being around a lot of people is I really can, you know, I'm, I am very, empathic in that way. And I'm not saying like, I can absolutely feel what everybody's feeling, but I have a very heightened sense of that. And you know, that is something that, it's not that I couldn't read social cues in terms of that, it's that I didn't know when to add in my speech and what to say and how to say it. It was physically like, painful to do it for me personally. Right. But yeah, and I think I really in my, you know, with becoming a therapist, I said, well, this will absolutely, I can't let people down in this. I have to be able to talk in this. I'm so, I'm glad I did that, you know, because it really, it kind of fulfilled that promise I made to myself to help other people, but it also put myself out there and has me doing it daily. Yeah. I was going to just say that. It's kind of cool because there's not a day that unless you're off or something like that, that you really can say, you know what, I'm not going to talk. So there's, you have opportunity every single day. where you have to have that interaction. cause even if you do a tele telehealth, you're still having that face-to-face You know, interaction and having to talk and yes, as a therapist, we're not running, you know, we're, it's not all about us, but you're still having to talk and you're still having to engage. Yeah, I have to connect with that person. I have no choice but to and it has absolutely been something. That I think telehealth has made it much better because in, in person, it's almost like I overread the cues. And I don't know if that's part of the selective mutism or if like, I just, again, like you said about the trauma, like I almost overread things and then I get, my mind can't focus on other things. So telehealth allows me to reduce that overstimulation. Yeah. I noticed with, cause I have anxiety and I noticed doing it in telehealth, I'm my, I'm definitely more in tune with the client because when a lot of times in person I am hyper aware of the door I'm hyper aware of how I'm sitting What I'm you know, like oh gosh, should I have my leg crossed? Should I not am I should I be across from the client or should they be kitty court? It's very silly stuff that most people probably don't think of but because of my anxiety is something that Higher than probably a lot of people. I do notice that. I'm aware of stuff like that. and I think that is something that, it absolutely is great because you know, we ourselves are. tools, right? And conducting therapy. And we have to have a certain level of like calmness so we can connect and like in being in tune. And like you said, if your mind space is in your emotional capacities being taken up with those things that your anxiety really hooks into, You can't really be there, but telehealth allows you to like, you know, you can fidget with something like, and they wouldn't even know you're doing it, like, you know, kind of thing and you're comfortable in your own space and pet, you got Paige over there, right? Yeah, there's sometimes that it's funny because most of my clients know Paige, like they might, some have seen her, some know her name. But sometimes, there is sometimes that Paige will just come into session, like, because usually her bed's like just in the corner. But she'll put her head on, on my lap while I'm in session, so sometimes I'll just be petting her during session. Yeah, she's so cute. Yeah, so, I mean, this was kind of a little bit different, I think, than our usual, but I just had kind of a fire lit under my skin about it because I saw some misinformation and I started to think about some of the people in my life. That they've said things and, you know, obviously again, not maliciously, but I just felt the need to come on and kind of almost use. My voice. Yeah, this is the best platform to do it And when we first started our podcast, we said we were going to, you know, of course, talk about things we like. Of course, we always talk about movies and shows and different things, but there's also going to be different things that are personal and also relevant if we see trends or things coming up. And this was something that Tanya saw and heard. And That people were recently talking about, and of course, it's near and dear to her. Yeah, very much so. Yeah, it hit me, it struck a chord. And not only just because of my own experience, but because I know if other people went through that, I mean, having to go through that is, it's just, it's such a diff I mean, amongst many other things, but this is something that, you know, selective mutism is very much, I am very aware of and very in tune with. To come on here and say, Hey, it's not Yeah. It's not, you know, necessarily this and again, I do want to preface that I am not at all saying when there is, when I say, you know, you don't necessarily, it's, you're not on the spectrum necessarily if you have selective mutism, they can co occur. I'm saying that for People to feel seen and understood. And that's why I'm, I felt the need to make that distinction because I've just heard people jump to again, really, you know, smart, educated people. And just when I've talked about selective mutism, they start talking about developmental delays and being on the spectrum and it takes away from, you know, people if that's not a part of their experience, right. Then that's cool. But you know, it's not. Something I've had that personally and I've thought, wow, like, have you not, you really don't know a lot about this and you have not been listening to me, you know, and that it, it feels a little invalidating. So, yeah, but I also realize it's not well known. It's not well researched. It's not really talked about. And that's why I wanted to say it, you know, so that maybe somebody can hear that and recognize that you know, that when they know they're, Locked in there and they don't understand why they can't speak and to say, oh, wait, that is something and I can get help for that. I'm really hoping that they can, you know, through your teachers, you know, a therapist or someone safe in your life. I really hope they're able to. Yeah. And again, just think of all the people that the child, your child, you, who has a child, is now helping as an adult with this. Like, so, you know, I know it sounds pretty, you know, You know, out there or whatever, but it is, you're able to heal your inner child by helping other people, too. Yeah, and I would absolutely be lying if I said that's not part of the process, and, you know, Some people look at that and they don't, they say, Oh, you should just be a therapist a hundred percent for other people. Yeah. But we all have parts of ours that are in our jobs. And a lot of times like even doctors or their specialty, they're impacted by something and therapists choose to have different specialties based on it may have affected them. It's, you know, people, Yeah, I don't wanna say we're all selfish, but there you wanna, you're driven by something that interests you and that you might have a personal connection to. Yeah. That's human nature. It's up for you because you understand it and you want to learn about it and you want to promote healing in that, hopefully, you know, healing in that, as people would want to. Yeah. Yeah. That would make sense. Because you don't want other people to experience that. Yeah. And you want to advance how people are treated in those situations or with those disorders or whatever it is. So I am very happy that it is more well known. I'm happy that it is something that it sounds like it's being treated and recognized a lot more in schools and at younger ages. You know, and I really think that, you know, if there's something, if somebody is listening to this and they don't have any resources, you can Google selective. Mutism help or resources, there's information, there's other ways to access, sometimes they have free groups or free, you know, kind of consulting one on one, but, you know, please do so. I do think, you know, a lot of schools and other, you know, community resources have been more active in this, but just in case, you never know. So, yeah. Yeah. That's Thank you. Thank you, Tom. That's my Yeah. I was going to say, thank you for Yeah. It's a Well, that's not all of it. That's not all of who you are. That's not your whole story. But, it's a lot, and I'm really excited that you shared it, and it was really brave of you. Thank you. Well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate being given this chance, and this episode to be able to do it, because it Yeah. I mean, it's It feels good. I mean, you're pretty, I mean, I know I always like tell you that you're awesome, but I mean, you're pretty amazing, Tonya. Just, you know, I didn't know I said this earlier, but just that you are a therapist and that you do all the, you know, like, because you could have gotten a job in a lab. Never talking to a person or purposely finding a career where you did not have to speak to anybody. But you chose to find a career where you know you're going to have to speak to people and use your voice every single day. That's so brave and so awesome that you did that. Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. And, you know, the feelings mutual for, you know, we've talked about a lot of things, you know, in your life as well. And yeah, I think you're, you know, Very admirable for turning your experiences into your career as well. So, and your life in general, you know, I guess we're both pretty awesome. So, despite our childhood, yeah, yes. Traumas but yeah, so let's, I think we can wrap it up here. We hope you enjoyed. this, you know, subject and if you have, certainly if you have any questions, anything you want to add, any of your experiences, please feel free to either DM us or, you know, leave a comment. We love to hear from you or any topics that you want to hear about in the future. Anything. We just, we love to hear from you. Yeah. I mean, if there are any other like mental health topics, if you want us to talk more about different shows, different movies, different characters or anything at all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let us know, tune us in, because sometimes we don't, we find some stuff, and then sometimes we need some referrals. Yeah, and sometimes you guys have to tell us, like, it's okay to get out of 1984 for things, yeah. Maybe. Yeah, we do tend to stay in that era. It's our comfort zone. We're very retro. Yeah. But, yeah. We are. We are. We're vintage. Okay. Yeah. So, and feel free to follow us, or please follow us on Instagram, yeah, at Wicked Psychotherapist. And Facebook, we are The Wicked Psychotherapists. But yeah, thanks guys. We really appreciate it. And we will see you all or you'll hear us all and see clips of us next week. All right. So, all right, guys. Hope we always have fun. We're going to close it out here, but as always, it's been fun. Forget. Stay wicked. And keep your mind well. Yes. Do so. All right, guys. Take care. We'll see you next week. All right. Okay. Bye bye. Bye, guys. We Wish You a Merry Christmas I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.